I’d like to share with you an email I received from one of my readers named Ryan. Ryan writes:
“Dear David,
I just got into the biggest fight with my girlfriend, because I was really curious about how many guys she’s slept with. I’ve only slept with three women – I’m 29 years old. I lost my virginity at 19, and I’ve had three relationships, so I’ve never really had casual sex. I’ve been honest with my girlfriend about that. When I asked her how many guys she’s slept with, she told me about 40! I freaked out and started screaming at her. She ran out of the room crying, and now she won’t return my phone calls. What do I do?”
Here was my answer to Ryan:
Ryan (aka Mr. Double Standard),
How disgraceful are you? My God, I can’t believe how many men do this over and over again. How many men judge women based on the number of men with whom they’ve slept? Who cares!
So she’s slept with 40 people. What difference does that make? She’s not sleeping with all 40 of them right now. When you come home at night, you don’t find 40 men in your bedroom waiting to have sex with your girlfriend.
Do you think she’s promiscuous now that you know she has slept with 40 men? She was just expressing her sexuality.
It’s amazing how many men think that it’s perfectly okay for them to sleep with 40 women . . . and even congratulate themselves for it. When a woman sleeps with 40 men, though, men consider her to be a slut.
I can’t stand guys who have double standards. I don’t care at all with how many men a woman has slept. All I care about is that she enjoyed herself, and that she grew throughout her sexual journey.
It’s not the number of people you sleep with that’s important. It’s what you do with them. It’s how you evolve as a person through those relationships. It’s what you learn about yourself from them.
Some of us may sleep with hundreds of people along the way. Why people do that will vary, but the reasons really don’t matter.
Whether you’re a man or a woman, it doesn’t matter with how many people you’ve slept. You should never judge your partner based on the number of people with whom they’ve slept.
Does your partner enjoy being with you? Are they loyal to you? Do they love being with you? Do they love having sex with you? If the answer to these questions is yes, then what does it matter how many people they’ve slept with before you?
You have to accept that being their partner now means accepting everything they’ve done before they were with you. You have to respect their journey and the things they’ve done. If you can respect all that they’ve done, then you are honoring who they truly are.
The minute you judge somebody like you did, Ryan, you probably deserve to have her walk out on you. You were practicing a double standard. Remember that no one is a slut or a stud when you don’t judge.
Today’s video will help you turn off the negative thinking and really help you embrace each persons unique journey in life.
Learn more from David Wygant at his official website and get cutting edge tactics for your dating life.
{ 32 comments… read them below or add one }
Hello, Ryan,
Don’t listen to David. He’s usually right, but he’s wrong this time. He calls you “Mr. Double Standard” out of nowhere – he doesn’t know if you think it’s OK for a man to sleep with 40 women, I would guess you don’t think so either. So don’t let him guilt trip you into thinking you’re a hypocrite.
You’ve only been in serious relationships, never had casual sex and only slept with 3 women by the age of 29. I think by this age, you’re thinking about getting married soon and maybe even having children.
YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT TO BE WORRIED! My advise to you would be to not have children with a woman who slept with 40 men. Your chances of building a successful family with her are slim. You will probably end up divorced paying child support. David shames you asking silly questions such as “does she enjoy being with you? is she in love with you?”. He’s looking at things from a hedonistic dater’s perspective. From this perspective, it really doesn’t matter and you’d show as insecure if all you wanted is to spend some quality time with her.
But I think your gut is looking for the mother of your children, for something serious, for a long-term commitment. David is oh-so-positive, and he will tell you something like “enjoy the moment, and when it’s time, break-ups only make you grow”. But if you, as a man, is seriously committing to a woman, you’re putting all of your resources on the line. You’re trusting her not to cheat and have your children, and not your neighbor’s. You’re trusting her not to divorce you and get alimony from you because she’s bored. You’re trusting her not to kick you out of your house and not to break her heart.
And a woman who had 40 partners are statistically much less likely to end up in a stable marriage. It’s hard to be monogamous. The thing that really helps is deep bonding and deep intimacy. If you haven’t had a lot of sex, it will help you develop these feelings. The more “experienced” you are, the harder it is to bond so deeply because 41st partner is unlikely to be seen as something special and irreplaceable. As a result, you only stay until you’re not bored or something better comes along.
40 partners is huge. The median number of sex partners in the US is 4-6. Statistically, she’s an outlier. She chose casual sex instead of committed relationships in the past and you’re afraid she’ll choose it in the future, too. You are right to be afraid.
Your reaction is emotional, and natural. It’s not because you’re insecure. Your hindbrain is trying to tell you something. That getting serious with that woman could be dangerous. It may or may not be right. But please, don’t allow David to guilt trip you.
Artem.
Gotta say I’m impressed with Artem’s comment.
I think he is SPOT on.
Frankly, I think Wygant sounds like a pompous asshole. You should NEVER judge blah blah blah. If she was a porn star, who cares? Whatever.
“He’s looking at things from a hedonistic dater’s perspective. From this perspective, it really doesn’t matter and you’d show as insecure if all you wanted is to spend some quality time with her.”
That quote blows me away. It’s EXACTLY right.
I very, very much have different standards for fun to hang with and have sex girls and ones I would consider seriously. FEMALE SEXUAL BEHAVIOR MEANS SOMETHING.
I had a friend who let a SLUT get pregnant by him (“forgot” to take her pill) and now he’s married to her and miserable. I kid you not from age 18 to 19 she fucked 25 guys, which included cheating on lots of boyfriends. That’s about one new guy every two weeks. This means ALOT.
She is a slut. Plain and simple. You can’t make a hoe a housewife. Her behavior says she is WAY screwed up and frankly I would say it would be a MIRACLE if she never cheated on her and even if she didn’t how could you ever feel secure with her knowing she’ll basically fuck anyone? I could never feel secure.
“Wygant, DO A BARREL ROLL!”
I’m gonna have to agree with Artem on this one.
Every girl I’ve dated who slept with over 10 men… or even the girl who liked to kiss all the dudes in her social circle… they’re good fun and all…
But when it comes to strictly long-term, they’re usually bad news.
They DO get bored easy. And yeah, if she breaks it off with you, it’s only a break up and not the end of your life. But if you’re looking to get serious, well it’s going to come down to how long you’ve known this girl. And whether or not YOU trust her.
I usually go with my intuition about this now. You’re gut is almost never wrong.
Do what feels right…
But if you decide to “keep” her, definitely don’t hang this over her head or ever bring it up… especially negatively… that will only make it WORSE (read: MORE LIKELY she’ll cheat.)
I’d advise forgetting about ever mentioning ever again, because your tone of voice will give you away… every… single… time.
Source: from getting cheated on 4 years ago because I was a wuss about it. Peace.
I slept with about 100 women that I remember between ages 23 and 34. Then I married and have had one excellent sexual partner (my wife) for the last 30 years. I don’t think we can judge women any differently than we would want to be judged.
2Tom: Of course, we can. Women and men are different. Their attitudes towards sex are different, too, as it has been proven by numerous studies. Their attitudes towards casual sex are also different. And no, it’s not because of the 20 centuries long orchestrated patriarchal conspiracy to repress women’s sexual drive. It’s just nature.
You slept with 100 women, congratulations to you. It’s not very easy to do if you have standards. Women probably find you attractive. Women don’t usually like inexperienced men, but men don’t usually care about how much experience their women have had when it comes to serious relationship. And a lot of men find women’s promiscuity repulsive, akin to how a lot of women view men’s virginity.
Why such a great difference? Study evolutionary theory. Our brains formed much earlier than condoms and pills appeared on the market. Women just couldn’t afford to be promiscuous – those who slept with anybody had much lesser chance to propagate their genes than the selective ones. It’s actually very easy to understand.
Remember, as they say, a key that opens a thousand locks is a master key. A lock that can be opened by a thousand keys is a bad lock.
Ultimately though, it’s not about judging. What a convenient word to use. Judging’s bad, don’t judge me. No, I don’t judge you. I just don’t want you to be my wife or girlfriend if you slept with 40 men. You’re not my type.
I really like your posts Artem. Do you have a website or blog? I’d love to get in touch. I was wondering if you could send me an email saying hello at articles2here[@gmail.com]
Could you post a link to these “numerous studies”?
I would not date a man that has slept with many women either. It shows me they will get bored and not be faithful.
Artem just broke some shit down. David’s argument was weak this time.
It’s amazing how sometimes every now and than, somebody just comes in and drops a bombshell on what is considered “right”. Artem just did this!
David’s argument is very strong depending on what your attitude really is, to men like him, and even myself, the idea of marriage is actually quite taboo and not even considerable (Though desirable).
Not that I can agree with Artem, personally, through my own standards, but I can agree with him completely in the overall frame he’s coming from.
The seduction community as a whole believes that the last thing a man should be looking for in a woman is marriage. They preach not meeting women “looking” for marriage or kids, and they often secretly believe marriage is something you should “never” pursue, even though they preach the opposite.
And this is the frame where David is coming from, just like the entire community.
Now here’s my side of the argument against Artem and everybody else commenting here. This is a SEDUCTION community!
I mean, why even take the energy to write an argument about “choosing the right life partner” in a community that doesn’t even believe in a “life partner”????
If you think about it, this entire argument is stupid.
Alot of good points though!
Just another comment to add to my argument!
We don’t go into a church preaching atheism.
We don’t go into a support group preaching selfishness.
We don’t go into a charity preaching greed.
We don’t go into a relationship website preaching seduction.
But for some reason, we go into a seduction website preaching choosing a “life partner”.
Get over it boys, the seduction community doesn’t know a hoot about “life partner”, it’s not that what you’re doing is wrong, it’s just that your argument will always be filtered, ignored, shot down, and just plain considered “not right”. (Even if you may be exactly right).
Yesterday I posted another comment but it doesn’t show. Maybe because it was rather long and contained links to the studies I was asked for. I’d really hate to think I got blocked or something.
I tried to post it again but I was given “you already posted this comment” message. I think it’s in David’s moderation queue for some reason. David, please check it!
Dunno what to tell ya buddy! :p Would have loved to hear your message, email it to me sure! haha
sean.e.sexton@live.com
Anyways, I still stand by my argument. The seduction community is flawed, life is flawed. They promise you greater relationships with women, and that’s what you get. But they constantly chase an ideal partner which not only they don’t believe in and preach against, also don’t exist (in my opinion).
David is right that his attitude was wrong, but Artem is also right that she’s just not what he’s looking for. We all gotta understand he freaked out, judged her, shamed her for being who she is, and brought her to tears. When all he could have done was negotiate a future relationship plan, or dump her, stating that this is not what he was looking for. Like a real mature man.
But our instincts of course are not rational like that. So Ryan did the best he can do with whatever he had in his psyche and should not be judged so harshly for it.
Again, I must tell you Artem, try not to be so serious with your point of views on this website, they are going on deaf ears because it seems to me you’re in a seduction community preaching against seduction.
Why, oh why did you freak out?
Do you think all 40 where better then you? Or do you feel it’s not fair she got to do it with 40 different guys while you only slept with 3 women? Or is it because you really don’t think you’re that good in bed? If you know what you’re doing and you’re rocking her world sexually it’s a great thing she got those 40 before hitting jack pot with you, she’ll be so much more into you. This way she’ll be so much more into you because you can do stuff to her that no other man could.
Next did you know women have a much bigger chance of reaching an orgasm with a guy they have a deeper emotional connection with?
Yes men and women are different when it comes to sexuality, but it doesn’t mean women are not sexual. They are more sexual then men, only in a different way. Men would like to have sex with 100 women, wile women would like to have sex 100 times but with a perfect man. So if she finally found you, her perfect man, you have nothing to worry about.
Don’t be so insecure over your sexuality (no, it’s not about her sexuality).
She let you in (no pun intended) and you just turned that against her. She feels like a slut now and because of you….Send her a text that you’ve been a fool and you only did so cause you love her so much.
Wow. Martijia’s comment is one of the most incoherent, self-contradictory and delusional things I have every read.
It makes me think if a person with this much analytical skill is qualified to give dating advise (she has a website dedicated on how to get a girlfriend back – http://www.makeupdontbreakup.net/ – so you can make a guess about her perspective on dating and love).
I am a little tired of commenting on this issue, but if anyone wants to hear my opinion, I will debunk Martjia’s sexual fairy tales in great detail.
I think Artem is full of shit, but why are we talking life partners.
Oh no you didn’t, no wonder she wants nothing to do with you, that should be between you and yourself. it just ruins things in a relationship.
Haha! Now I really love where this conversation is going, so many different paradigms, and people who cannot see around their own point of views.
This is what keeps a debate interesting!
Here’s an experience I had recently.
I was talking to this girl on the phone for several months, I believed she was great to chat to and was real cool, however I had a similar reaction when she told me she slept with 200 guys in two years, that she was very desperate and would sleep with anybody who would promise a relationship, and has caught a STD in the past.
I kind of reacted as well, I did tell her off a bit and asked her if she had any self respect, and than she said “No I do not” in which in the end I stated that I had no respect for her either.
We didn’t talk much anymore, but that’s okay, I make these choices for me, and I can see why we gotta be choosey, and sometimes, emotions are just tricky like that, we do tend to react to things we are not familiar or comfortable with.
The whole point of the seduction community is eventually learning to be comfortable with all kinds of situations quite like these and yourself, masters of conflict, but since many of us are just beginners, we’re going to freak out at people, and women, and we’re going to do that ALOT before we reach a real mature level that women crave.
Ryan,
I guarantee you the number is MUCH higher than that. C’mon. Were you realistically expecting an honest answer? If you believe that the magic number is merely “40″…then I’ve got a bottle of snake oil that will take the edge right off of that headache, man.
From a personal perspective: Every woman I know that is (or was) “promiscuous” has serious psychological issues; they’re impractical for use in a long-term relationship. The “slutting” it up? This is but a by-product of another underlying issue. The hypersexuality manifests as a coping mechanism, similar to overeating or alcohol/drug abuse. You don’t need that, brother. Trust me.
And Artem is right about the “bonding” process. Statistics have shown that for each new sexual partner a person takes on, the more likely they are to divorce once married. Women (especially) are desensitized to basic intimacy when they work around the block. The higher volume of sexual partners=a decrease in interpersonal intimacy between long-term partners. There is a good chance that somewhere down the road she’ll get “bored” with you and piss around with the milkman or poolboy or your brother or whatever.
And she’ll betray you willingly and not even bat an eye.
Look. If you’re willing to milk the cow until the wheels fall off–more power to ya. But your track record suggests that you’re searching for more than that out of a relationship. If you make her your wife or–even worse–the mother of your child…you’re just asking for trouble. You’re not a masochist by chance, are you? You possess a rational male mind and your gut instincts are telling you to back away. What other signs do you need? Would you like God to shoot some fuckin’ flares into the sky for you?
DeAngelo wouldn’t understand the basic algorithm for mature human relationships. As his products are designed to aid low-tier males in racking up superficial notches, this hardly comes as a surprise really.
Yawn.
@DUCK
Another great post!
People there are two aspects to this. Imagine a girl is a raging alcoholic and she’s hot. There’s no point in judging her for being an alcoholic. She’s just fine, PERFECT in fact, to have sex with. She’s not perfect to have a relationship with or marry.
Being an ALCOHOLIC has meaning. It means something. Take account of it and act accordingly. Similarly being PROMISCUOUS has meaning. There’s no need to judge her for it. Just know it means she’s not likely to be good for a serious relationship.
Is it more likely to work out with a virgin or a girl who has been with 50 guys? We all know the answer.
Let’s look at the flip side. How bout a girl that doesn’t like sex? I have a friend who has never had an orgasm from anything and she’s 27. Do you want to be with a girl who can’t get off? Again, don’t judge her, but that means the sex won’t be that good with her.
Not judging and ignoring reality and what something means are TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT things.
If you want to say it would have been better if the original poster hadn’t freaked out and had been unreactive to her count and simply took account of this fact and switched her from marriage track to fuck buddy. I agree. If you want to say her promiscuity is irrelevant to making her a wife I must disagree.
As the saying goes: You can’t make a hoe a housewife.
David, you are an idiot!
Artem,
I think you’re a horrible misogynist. Women are not some monolith; we choose our sexual partners for a variety of reasons. Some women sleep with a lot of men out of insecurity, others out of sexual desire, still others bop from relationship to relationship until they find the right man. Amongst my girlfriends, there are plenty of us who have had a large number of partners (let’s say, 10-50) over the course of 10 or 20 years. We’re now older and most of us are in serious, committed relationships.
I don’t think you’re entirely wrong, mind you; I think you’re talking about one specific subset of woman, and that your assumptions can’t be applied to womankind. I’ve been with around 30 men (in the course of 15 years, so around 2 per year) – about half of which were relationships of some kind and the other half were one-nighters or flings. And yet it took all of that to find the right man. I don’t think I would have found him any easier had I stayed at home knitting.
Sexual experience should not (necessarily) be viewed as an indicator for one’s relationship suitability. Sex is important, mind you, but its importance waxes and wanes throughout our lives.
Basically, Artem, I think you have some growing up to do. I think that when you’re a bit older, and a woman is actually honest with you (or you might a woman who isn’t shallow), you’ll view things differently.
Alexa,
You are a typical woman in denial of male psychology. I think it’s you, not me, who have some growing up to do. Like children, you resort to shaming language instead of arguments. This is very immature. Then again, you’re over thirty, had 2 partners a year during the last 15 years, probably no kids – where would the maturity come from?
Hey, would you have a homeless bum for a husband? How about a virgin? How about a killer? No? Then you’re a serious misandrist! Here, have a taste of your logic.
The fact that I wouldn’t get seriously involved with any woman who’s had 30 lovers doesn’t make me a woman-hater. A woman-hater is a person who hates women. What kind of a twisted mind could confuse my refusal to get involved with hatred for the entire gender. That’s probably a sting of hypothetical rejection speaking in you. Hell, even if I hated you personally, it still wouldn’t make me a woman-hater.
Women have endless check-lists for their men. I have only three requirements: beautiful, good personality and not a slut (i.e. does not view sex lightly). Believe me, those women exist.
I do not care for what reasons you (hypothetically speaking) have “chosen” to sleep with a bunch of men. All that is telling me is that you were not particularly selective during the times of your sexual prime (when nature intended you to bear children, by the way, which you would have if not for modern technology). Since I am a male, it does not appeal to me.
I do not view sexual experience as an indicator for one’s relationship suitability. You can get plenty of sexual experience without jumping from one man to another. Do not confuse sexual experience with sexual variety.
And yes, the need for sexual variety SHOULD be viewed as an indicator for one’s relationship suitability.
Artem.
I like this post. I’ve never understood men who obsess over having a girlfriend who is “pure” or “not a slut.” Women have urges and sexual impulses too. Just because she was a party girl in college doesn’t mean she’s not trustworthy in a relationship. I think they’re two completely different things — apples to oranges if you will.
@Mark
That’s because you’re dumb.
Well I can somewhat relate to what Ryan is saying…
I was 19 when I had my first serious girlfriend and sexual partner. Previously, she had been with three other guys, although unlike Ryan’s girl these where not casual encounters. When she told me about her sexual past I did feel a little betrayed or upset with her. And the way she described those relationships, they were not as worthwhile and positive as ours. I also remember feeling that sex between us could not have been a special to her as it was to me.
It took me a while to get over the fact that she was intimate with other people, but what helped is that one day we had a serious conversation about it. I told her that I know her past is her past and that cannot be changed, but I was saddened by it. She always reassured me that what we had was much more special that what she had in the past. Also, coming into our relationship, we had different views on sex, so that played a part in our feelings towards sex between us. We also discussed that. As our relationship progressed, she once told me that if she knew that I would be in her future she would not have slept with those other guys.
I don’t know if you all are still together, but hopefully you and her had a conversation about this. If not, let her know that it does upset you that she has slept with so many people before. Raise you doubts, concerns, and fears, and don’t be afraid to hide or downplay your feelings. She has to understand that your concerns are legitimate. She has to prove to you that you mean something much deeper to her than anything other encounter she had.
You know her better than anyone on this site. Just think of how bad she feels. Trust me, there’s a good chance she probably regarded herself a a ho or slut long before you did (that’s if you did), and that’s why she never brought it up before. Just as she has to understand your feelings, you must do the same for hers. You love the person you’re with, not the person she was. Many people have made good points in saying her past can be an indication of her commitment to you. But just as my girlfriend did, she may come around to say she wish she did “wait” for you, not be so sexually active, or something along those lines. You must also remember we humans tend to live so much in the moment that we don’t think how our actions will catch up with us one day, and if she knew that it would have gotten to this point she wouldn’t have done what she did. This is a lot to read but I hope this helped.
mayne, suck a dick
I’ll have to weigh in on Artem, Duck, and Wow’s side. There seem to be a couple of reasons for wanting to participate in the seduction community. Duck has his finger on it:
“DeAngelo wouldn’t understand the basic algorithm for mature human relationships. As his products are designed to aid low-tier males in racking up superficial notches”
These “low-tier” males and their superficial notching are the first variety. But there is another kind of man that has been attracted to the seduction community as well. This is the man who is looking for a long term relationship (probably marriage) with a quality girl. He realizes from past failures with women that interactions with attractive women are not as straightforward as interacting with other people with whom he has no romantic interest. He realizes that he needs a new skill set and turns to the seduction community to learn the craft. The craft itself is effective and it doesn’t discriminate between users. That is, both low and high tier guys can use it to game girls. The difference lies in what they are using it for. Ryan, the OP, may not be looking for marriage with his girlfriend, but for those of us who are, we are certainly going to be taking into account things like number of past partners.
Alexa’s comment on the different reasons a woman might choose to be promiscuous clouds the point. Sure, there may be a number of reasons a woman has many lovers, but it has been my experience that, in general, promiscuity like that of Ryan’s girlfriend is the result of a fucked up past and can only lead to relationship problems in the future. That isn’t to say that it can’t work, but your chances are much narrower. And when we are talking about something of this kind of importance, who wants to play the odds? Find a beautiful and chaste girl instead. They are out there.
Sisyphus.
More than 15 partners makes a woman unsuitable for any kind of long-term relationship. Bang her by all means, but do not take her seriously.
What if shes had 8 partners in the past 4 years
I am dating, and dearly loving, a woman that at one point in her life, for about two years actually, was dating about 3-4 guys at the same time. At the same time, I repeat. She was loving to all of them shed told me, and that is how she was expressing herself. She had grown up in a bigoted religious family that had negated her any kind of freedom all through high school, so when she got to 25, she really opened up sexually. It was NOT easy to accept this guys, no, not at all, I had so many arguments about it, trying to understand why, but in the end, and after many months, I gave it up and just accepted it and decided to love, and love unconditionally. My lady is the best lover ever, I have ever had, she is loyal, and really knows what that word means because for several years she was sincere and told her guys she did not belong to any one of them. But when she did give her word, she did. So my experience has been difficult, but hey, I am happy, and I have a wise, mature, intelligent companion whom I can trust even if she had lots of guys and more than I had women. Love orrides judement. Make a choice: can you love her or not? If so, so it, and forget the past, since the past belongs only in one place: the trash. Good luck
A clarification of my above comment: my girlfriend dated 3-4 guys in parallel, meaning she was seeing 3-4, sometimes even more guys, within a month….not at the same time (sorry, not american, my english can be misleading). Anyway, talk to ANY very beautiful woman these days, I mean a 9 (like my girlfriend) who is model-beautiful, and you will find that they are seeing more than one man simoultaneously, often 2, and even more. It is not uncommon. If someone can, they will. I am not saying it is a pure way of life, but it happens. Probably always did. Some people like promiscuity, others like me did not need it so much, but hating it makes you feel bad and judmental inside, and not happy. Ciao, enjoy, Marco