There were quite a few comments over at the Real Social Dynamics vs Love Systems Bootcamp post that I published yesterday. I noticed that some guys said that the Real Social Dynamics bootcamps are for guys wanting to be “natural” in picking up women, and that a base of routines is a requirement for learning the more “advanced” material known as natural game.
What I’m about to say is not demeaning towards the commentators in anyway, which were quite valid in regards to the actual post. My discussion in this post is about the false concept of being able to be trained into a “natural” through a bootcamp of all things.
“If you are already talkative and outgoing, RSD can help you quite a bit. ” -Adonis
“RSD is definitely more intune with “natural be yourself” game while Lovesystems is for the guy who struggles in social settings. Both have their positive points and are really geared for different types of guys….” -Brad
The Concept Of Being Natural
A natural in community terms is someone who attracts women through his life, words, and actions without using canned lines or other forms of persuasion typical to routine-based game like Mystery Method. A natural doesn’t have a plan per se, but instead uses his life and personality to attract women into it. This is usually through social circles, charisma, and lifestyle.
Why You Cannot Be Trained As A Natural In A Bootcamp
Being a natural is not trainable. Why? A natural by definition is someone who writes their own rules, plays by their own game, and naturally attracts women through who they are as a person. Can naturals be made? Sure. Can they be trained? No.
What’s the difference?
Making yourself a natural requires that you are heavily involved in your life’s pursuits that are particular to YOUR PERSONALITY & LIFE. By using what you have naturally, you can expand your life and make it naturally attractive to women. Therefore, as soon as you start crossing over into “things to say” or “what to do” to project that natural attractiveness, you’ve entered the routine-based game arena. Routines are supposed to be from your life. They are supposed to be specific to you. The stories, games, cocky lines, body language tips, etc, that may eventually become natural inside you were still learned specifically for the purpose of building attraction. They were planned out originally from a routine-based game perspective. I think many guys think that a natural is someone who has the ability to dynamically reproduce those routines on the fly without rehearsal. That skillset comes from practice. A parallel would be sales. You learn the concepts and specifics, (eg. closing the sale, scarcity, etc) and they become natural to you and you can apply them to any product you are to sell.
The question remains…
How Do You Make Yourself a Natural Without Coaching?
You learn social skills, correct body language and build natural confidence that comes from personal successes in social scenarios through a specific plan. True confidence is only built through positive experiences in the area you wish to have confidence in. Eg. Approaching a woman in a bar.
In summary, you should never pay to be trained in becoming a natural.
Why do people want to be trained to learn to be more natural? Because they don’t want to come off as fake or someone they aren’t. Don’t you think that being propelled to an advanced level which ONLY comes through a natural learning curve is inherently unnatural? You should learn principles to govern yourself by, YES, but you can’t learn those in a 72-hour period. Those are learned through assimilation of external stimuli as you progress through your life, and by meeting others who employ those skills in theirs over time.
The confidence, “assertive dominance”, body language, charisma, and all these Real Social Dynamics buzz words are all learned through either trial and error or having a plan of action and NOT by a coach. It’s good marketing on Real Social Dynamics and other pickup companies to give men their desired result NOW – natural game – but that only comes through time and effort. By learning the principles of natural game you only further the gap between your current position and your goal of attracting women.
Do you need to be coached in “routines” at a beginning level to become natural later? Not necessarily but it would speed the learning curve if those routines are specifically from your life. Otherwise, the concepts you’ll learn to be a trained as a natural will in themselves make you UNNATURAL.
I’m saying that there is no need to take a “natural” bootcamp ever. Because the thing that makes you a natural naturally, is positive experience in your skills as a man. That can never be taught in an express manner.
Do naturals exist?
Yes. But they usually surface after YEARS and YEARS of positive experiences and the mind/body’s process of weeding out what works and what doesn’t.
“But What If I’ve Reached A Certain Level Of Game, And Want To Become A Natural. Isn’t A Natural Game Bootcamp Now Valid?”
No, it’s not. If you’re truly getting good results from women using routines or a plan of action, why would you want to become “natural”? Aren’t you already a natural? Or perhaps what’s needed now is tweaking instead of a complete overhaul. How about mastering those skills FIRST instead of worrying about becoming a natural? What I’ve seen happen usually is that guys get worn out, feel fake and/or don’t feel like putting in correct effort, so they see a magic pill to their problem which is… NATURAL GAME! “That’s why that girl didn’t like me! I wasn’t being myself NATURALLY!” NO… it’s because you haven’t integrated what works with your personality. You’ve come across as fake because you’ve taken the easy road and COPIED someone else’s routines or plan of action that didn’t mesh with you properly.
I hope that expresses my feelings on the subject, there is validity in natural game, but only in “concepts”, not skillsets. If anything those concepts can be simply viewed on a DVD, but its pointless to be coached infield on it. Incorporating “natural game” concepts is a slow process, and if you try to do it over one weekend you’ll quickly become what you dreaded all along – UNNATURAL.
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{ 19 comments… read them below or add one }
Great article! I’d just like to add if a guy wants to be interesting then he must get interested in his own life. If you don’t find your life fun and compelling then why would anyone else want to get involved in it?
Decide what you want in your life for fun, finance, and contribution.. find your path.. and start taking progressive action to achieve those things.
Then, and only then, will you have a lifestyle that attracts beautiful women.
David Gideon
Learning a routine-based game is also a long process… People are kidding themselves if they think they can learn MM or the emotional progression model or any other stacking game in a weekend if they are starting from being horrible with women and generally creeping them out.
But…
Over time they can learn the principles necessary to become the kind of guy who not only can spout the proper “routines” at the right time but can subcommunicate the underlying characteristics of an attractive guy as well.
Either way, you’re not going to be able to become successful with one weekend bootcamp. You’re going to be putting a lot of work in after that for anything to become integrated….regardless if you go the routine-based or the natural.
I generally agree that if you are going from zero, you’ll see more initial results from having a solid game-plan using routine-based game and that can reinforce your drive to master the skills….and so it is typically a better route for a lot of guys…
…but…
there certainly is merit to learning to become more natural where you aren’t dependent upon clever lines and stories to create the illusion of being attractive….
…and sometimes a bootcamp can be just the catalyst that unlocks this in certain guys.
Hey Adonis,
I like you view point man, Im not a groupie but I finally have respect for your comment.
im just a regular guy who was lame and the intial scripted stuff was weird at first ,I learn intial Mehow’s how to be social was great for me…
if you are social you can go from there….
I felt weird doing opinion openers… (intuitively gut feeling)
after that I learned from others and pretty much improvised the routine but sometimes routines interfere with social calibration after the opener…. its too much work to calibrate infield.
I use routines as DHV’s or start a topic to talk about or qualify
after you been out I like RSD stuff
(Natural Tim’s girlfriend routine for 5 minutes is MONEY !!!! )
eventhough the made up stuff have a seed of making your routine…DUDE its still a routine…I never went to RSD bootcamp btw.
I like AFC ADAM’s Stuff ALOT I can add routines If I want…you dont have to..plus the guy is THe BEST Ive ever seen, I dont see anyone more experienced than him and knowledgeable and charismatic person Ive ever met. his style is different beyond advanced.
To put it in prespective ,
everyone is different therefore ,no guy should game the same
- Entropy
guys should be aware whats congruent and better themselves what attractive style works for them fits into their personlaity then take it from there use strengths and work the weak parts…
there is no right or wrong its what fits into their personlaity
I used to paint my nails white like mehow LOL
LOOK If you’re good looking you dont need routines I do see girls jump on guys lap.
If your fat you need lose weight and work on it and work around what you have verbally to get good while you work on you looks or passive value…like I am
and dont argue with me on that.
what do I know?
anyways Im just still a newbie thats getting my ass kick infield.
to get where I know this is differnt from what “community” sells
“attraction is a choice” – Adam Lyons
awesome post!
Being told to be a “natural” is like being told to be funny or smarter. Unless there is a road map to start off with, and something you can use repetitively to practice and learn to internalize it’s just flailing around and hoping to get “lucky”.
I think RSD is a bunch of self masturbating, temporary fix, pump yourself up bullshit. Not everyone needs routines forever, but they give you something tangible to practice with and practicing helps you know how to improvise when the time comes… Good article.
I have to disagree with the article. I think natural game bootcamps are amazing, they’ll give you a long lasting identity level change instead of a layer of routines that covers up a broken boy inside.
RSD is exactly the long term change you want, but it can be useful for newbies to start of practising with routines, yes.
I’ve found RSD to be extremely helpful with my game. Check out my blog for other posts on getting girls home, here: http://livedatingsupport.com/.
PUA Training also claims to coach guys to become “naturals”. You recommended their bootcamps.
Why is that different from RSD?
Great post by the way. Nice to see you keep updating your blog.
Christ, PUA Training are the ultimate train-wreck of a company – the number of poor reviews they get is hilarious and a little sad at the same time. AFC Adam has great game, but the rest of their trainers are pitiful…
i had buddies (freshmen in college when i was a senior) who wanted advice on what to say, do, react, etc. I told them to find a hobby at which they could become skilled (if they had none presently) and begin by learning how to simply talk to women on a personal level, then as their confidence slowly builds, they will know that talking to women is not cause for hysterics, and they will have the confidence to go for the close. i learned long ago that there is NO substitute for many hours in the field testing shit time and time again, not walking up to X number of girls per night and using Y line/routine etc.
I say tomato, you say tomato.
Some people like apples. And some people don’t.
I’m sick of hearing that AFC Adam has great game. Has anyone seen his game? I heard her doesn’t do demos either: http://tinyurl.com/dy5w8c
If you won’t do demos, go home. You don’t deserve to teach. RSD, go home. PUA Training, go home.
What big companies aside from Love Systems or Love Systems spinoffs do demos?
I think when it comes to game rather ‘natural’ or ‘routine’ based, that it’s truly up to the individual who chooses either path to take. If a guy feels his game will improve with a natural game bootcamp, let him do it and find his own results from the camp. And if it’s a routine based bootcamp let them go to live and learn from the experince. Although I’ve taken neither. I feel confident in saying that I’m a natural, and enjoy learning new material such as routines to better my game. And I would recommend to anyone who reads this article or have taken either style of bootcamp to have an open mind and understand that no bootcamp will help if
you don’t take action yourselves and put the work into having the life you want.
That’s my post and I thank Donovan for this site, and article keep up the good work man.
Polanova
RSD use routines in their game all the time.
They readily admit it too.
It’s just that as of late they tend to mitigate their importance because it doesn’t fit their current marketing campaign.
They also emphasize the point that ‘routines alone won’t cut it, you need to have a cool personality’.
That’s all there is to it. Hope this helps some guys with their struggle.
To the guy that said AFC Adam does’nt do demos. I have to disagree with you.
I took the workshop he did in Dublin last year and during it he gamed the waitress at the cafe we went to for breakfast, he opened a set of 2 girls in the middle of the street and got there numbers and convinced a group of girls to leave a restaurant and come with us to a club.
“You learn social skills, correct body language and build natural confidence that comes from personal successes in social scenarios through a specific plan. True confidence is only built through positive experiences in the area you wish to have confidence in. Eg. Approaching a woman in a bar.”
To me, this would be my arguement of WHY you would want to take a “natural” game focused bootcamp.
Yes, you can learn that on your own. No, you dont need to take a bootcamp. But, a bootcamp is a step in the process. The sheer number of approaches will help some of the underlying problems that MUST BE FIXED before real confidence can be developed. Ability to deal with rejection is a great example. So called “AA.” Significant strides can be made in those areas in a weekend.
One will never be a “Natural” until one is confident. I look at bootcamps as accelerators toward becoming confident. I dont think any pick up company out there says they are necessary.
@theVoice
“I look at bootcamps as accelerators toward becoming confident.”
They are only accelrators when the practice is targeted to that area. Eg. Approaching at a bar. Therefore, natural game bootcamps don’t focus on specific PRACTICAL areas to gain help in, only concepts and generalities. Otherwise, those bootcamps are routine based. I have no problem with routine based bootcamps at all. I think they are very much required if no other guys in your life are available.
Great article, Donovan.
I think your argument has merit especially given the history of the community as portrayed in The Game. Mystery was the first guy to offer 3 day bootcamps, teaching a very structured, routine-based game. Then RSD, Pickup 101, and other entrants came into the field and copied his business model. All of the bootcamp companies in the industry’s formative years taught routine-based game.
Then some of the ideas behind natural game stared gaining traction in the community, so RSD evolves their bootcamp to ecompass ideas around natural game and “deep identity-level” change. But the initial bootcamp was designed as a routine-based training product. So it’s a fact that they are taking an instructional method (bootcamp) that was invented to teach one thing (routines) and are applying it to something different (identity, personality development).
What I’ve noticed, without fail, is that the guys who improve the fastest and most consistently have a “mentor” or do something like weekly phone consults. Basically they check up with a coach every week, review everything that happened the week prior and made plans for the coming week (which nights to go out, upcoming dates, goals as far as sets, numbers, etc.)
The thing is, marketing a “be mentored weekly for 4 months by phone!” doesn’t sell well. And it’s a shame.
Bootcamps are nice, and I’ve seen some guys get good pretty quickly from them. But they’re usually the exception, not the rule. For most people, what they learn on a bootcamp is basically what they could have learned in a few weeks out with regular guys better than them.
Oh Dear, strip away social conditioning etc and were all naturals Donovan. Do you think you were born not able to pick up girls? Being a natural with girls is the most natural thing in the world.