What Is With The Bad Leadership Within The Community?
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First, Mystery parted ways with business partner after business partner. First, someone, then Savoy, then Mike Long of Area 51 Lifestyle. These splits usually ending up hurting Mystery more than anyone.
Now, Wayne Elise has followed Mystery’s example. Wayne Elise split with Christian Hudson about two years ago, and now has had a falling out with his lead instructor Dan.
Here’s Dan’s post of which Thundercat made me aware:
It has been an interesting journey with CA. I think they offer an amazing path for men to learn to be more social and better with women. I still highly recommend them. Unfortunately I see some failings in their leadership structure and business practices. None of this affects their past present or future clients. I still recommend people take their workshops. (IMHO Greg, their LA instructor is the best active instructor they have)
I have always wanted to expand what i learned beyond “pick-up” and teach more. In the last six months it really looked like CA was expanding in that direction. They had even changed their tagline to “Teaching People Stuff to People”. However waiting for it made me a bit apathetic and honestly i was getting burnt out. You can obviously see from my lack of posting that i was not passionate about creating new content. This was eventually what made CA justifiably think about focusing on other instructors. Younger less-experienced instructors are hungry for work. They are passionate about writing and bringing in clients. So in essence my fresh apprentice became my replacement.
The hardest thing I found about the end of my working with Charisma Arts was the way in which it came about. While the company is fantastic with working with their clients in their workshops, communication beyond talking to girls in bars apparently does not apply to their internal communication. I was taken off the schedule for two months and all of my workshops were changed to my apprentice who was the newest instructor on the team. I was not told of this change and I only found out about this because a client emailed me asking when my next workshop was because they wanted to work with me. I checked the schedule and to my surprise two months of workshops that i was scheduled for were no longer being taught by me. My full time employment for two years had come to a close without so much as a whisper.
Things must be stressful over at Charisma Arts, which used to be one of the top dating coaching companies, but is slowly diminishing to a non-influence due to mismanaged operations and internal HR strife. I think this stuff boils down to something Doctor Paul talks about called “Boundaries” on his mindOS series of products.
I think these events should be a red flag that guys start to notice. If our “gurus” can’t control their business, certainly with leeway for normal business challenges, I put my voice out there and say that they shouldn’t be teaching us to get our lives together.
What is going on with these guys?
Popularity: 7% [?]
Tali does a great job of overcoming the inherent communication gap that presents itself on the surface in a typical ...
+1
Well done, Donovan.
That being said, Stephen was a cool dude on Barry's show today. The "community" needs more people ...
What's the deal here? I have never seen such absolute rubbish.
Just keep it simple..some chciks are hot...some are not....some will ...
Come on guys, you look really really really ..... "nacos".
I laugh when I see this :) 
I think TD's real strength is in is writing and I'd love to see him at least write a solid ...
Me: (after some conversation and comfort building. when both of you are generally finding out more about each other): Are ...
Tony Robbins was revolutionary when he started. now that his concepts are so well known he is considered 'old stuff', ...
Great point Brad.
Tony Robbins's content isn't revolutionary... but the man is as successful as he is because of his ability ...
Kezia..You make a good point that you need to add that sexual tension early on in meeting her. And not ...
Comment by jimd on 24 July 2008:
> I put my voice out there and say that they shouldn’t be teaching us to get our lives together.
Amen! so many of them are fucked up and bitter. being the brilliant marketers that they are, they excel at lying and twisting truths, they do it for a living. AND YET, their bitterness still comes through. there’s just too much of it. jeffy rsd and sean messenger are first examples that come to mind.
then there’s the other group: the arrogant full of themselves megalomaniacs: juggler, mystery, tyler. all are being constantly hated upon or having feuds with everyone around them in their personal life, just like you mentioned donovan.
not only you shouldn’t pay these people, you shouldn’t listen to them even if they teach you for FREE. they inject your mind with poison. it’s brain damage and it will take you years to undo it later because you let it in so readily, believeing that it comes from ‘good gurus’!
guard your own souls.
Comment by Thread on 24 July 2008:
Nobody is perfect, no matter how many times they can get laid. I know guys who get laid all the time that everyone should learn from, but have many faults in other areas of their life… They still have something to offer, just not in those areas of their life.
We are learning the art of seduction here, not business 101. Nobody is 100% enlightened. This community is still young, and theres still alot that even Mystery and Wayne Elise dont know…
All I know, You can learn pickup for next to free, almost all the information you need is on the net. Taking a bootcamp or a seminar isnt a bad thing, but they are only 2-3 days usually and they DO NOT make up for what you could obtain if you went out 3 times a week for a year.
Real success in the game comes from real expierence…
Go out and fail
Comment by Dare on 24 July 2008:
I agree with Thread’s sentiment that we can definitely LEARN from people with flaws because we ALL have flaws.
However, saying that, if I’m gonna CHOOSE to SPEND THOUSANDS of DOLLARS on a workshop, I’m personally gonna MAKE SURE I get a good feel for THAT PERSON’s (or Company’s) values & traits & past conduct.
Saying that we ALL make mistakes & do stupid fucking things at times. BUT if you’ve been found lacking in the area of integrity & decency I’m not interested in investing in your corruption, UNLESS you’ve taken the mature step of DISTANCING yourself from your past mistakes, man!
So when it comes down to it, who’s workshop are you gonna take?
Personally, that’s a no brainer - decent, caring morals usually translates to “they’ll treat me like a human being instead of a quick buck”..I’ll take Dan Social Hitchhiker’s worskshop, ANY DAY over CA until I see genune evidence of real change, which is both hard to observe & hard to DO..
..but its possible.
Good luck to Dan, Dimitri, Diego De La Vega, Johnny Saviour & the Other ex-Charisma Arts instructors. Thanks for improving our lives guys.
Comment by TightGame on 24 July 2008:
It appears as if Dan wanted Charisma Arts to evolve into more of a management consulting firm as opposed to exclusively a pickup company.
The sweet spot of the free market, however, is to stay focused on picking up girls at bars and clubs. If one company is boasting about how 50% of their students get laid on bootcamp and the other company is waxing philosophical about people skills in general, which company is going to get more signups?
It’s also very difficult for seduction gurus to establish credibility in business and sales communications. Sales gurus like Kevin Hogan and Joe Vitale have steered clear of seduction because the association would be a turn-off in corporate circles.
Good luck to Dan in his new endeavors. Turnover in corporate America is a fact of life, yet for some reason always causes drama in the community…
Comment by Brad on 24 July 2008:
Ah, TightGame… you hit on an interesting point.
(although I think seduction “students” should pick up a couple marketing books, like Cialdini’s Influence… ALL of the basic premises are the exact same)
Also, I can’t tell you how many people I know that split from business partners, etc… it happens all the time.
I’ve done it before. Sometimes you just want to go in a different direction… or you have different ideas.
I don’t think its necessarily a bad reflection on leadership.
But what do I know…
Comment by Dare on 24 July 2008:
Are you KIDDING ME?
TightGame doesn’t seem to know what he’s talking about except that he’s an avid student of the worst, most extreme kind of Capitalism..the version where people are “its” & cash is King.
I HIGHLY doubt Dan is in this for that, I HIGHLY doubt his focus is Corporate America in the way your talking about it. Read his most recent post on LEADERSHIP. Management Consulting? Are you Serious? GIVE ME A BREAK.
Lame. Check yourself foo’
Lastly, I HIGHLY doubt you know what your talking about when you mention Sales GURUS.
Tight GAME? Ha, funny… More like TIGHTY WHITEYS, jack.
Comment by Dare on 24 July 2008:
OR “TIGHTY-WITIES”.
“The Sweet Spot of The Free Market”?>!
NEWBIE WARNING: This Community is FULL of SOCIAL ROBOTS & Assimilated BORG like THIS.
Let people teach you to their Expertise (Dating) then GET THE PUCK OUT (unless you know how to spot bullshitting like this)
BAzO has WaRNeD YOu. People like to preach OUTSIDE their area of Expertise..
Comment by Ares on 28 July 2008:
How come Savoy is associated with Mike Long now?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs182c8g-4o
Haha
Comment by Dennis on 28 July 2008:
I both agree and disagree with some of the points being made here.
- YES, some grow bitter because they compare themselves to others who’re bigger (in their opinion) then them and in turn decide to badmouth other guru’s…or even their own employees…and some grow vain because they compare themselves to others who’re smaller (in their opinion) then them and in turn decide to ask SKYHIGH prizes because of their uniqueness, shoot themselves and their businesses in the foot because they think they don’t need to network OR learn about marketing/sales.
And you know what? The bitter ones then start COPYING the ‘bigger ones’ AND the vain ones STOP innovating and end up declining over time because they won’t be ahead of the curve anymore. Don’t believe me? Check out the websites of 5 random guru’s and SEE if they don’t use the same copywriting/sales letters and risk guarantee as David De Angelo does. And when was the last time we heard of a BIG, earth shattering, game changing bladiebla product of BadBoy for example? I rest my case, and respect BadBoy very much btw (just an example).
- About the CA not expanding into other areas of self-help and only staying focused on what’s in hot demand right now I only say three words: David…De…Angelo. Google this: double your dating, get altitude, guru mastermind. He teaches guys how to be succesful with women, how to have successful e-businesses AND if you check out his psyhic sales letter video on the guru mastermind vidoblog you see him creating a landing page for WOMEN about I think it was…tips on their looks? So what do you mean it can’t be done? He’s the most successful one out there, $20 million business.
- Thousands of dollars on a workshop? What about Jeffy’s (RSD) FREE seminars then, with one coming up in Amsterdam August 14th? Other free video and audio content? Or more illegal: bittorrents with gigabytes full of pick up materials?
But I DO believe too many of the think in the terms of how Earl Nightingale said something like this in his Strangest Secret audio: most people expect the fireplace to keep them warm whenever they reach out and put their hands near it…and refuse to put the wood in first. You must GIVE before you get, and the more HIGH value you give, the more high VALUE you’ll get. But that’s what most guru’s are affraid of: if I work together with … or tell my prospects … I will reveal all my secrets and nobody will buy me anymore. WRONGGG. Look at how much David De Angelo already gave away for free on his double your dating landing pages…and THEN at how much his company makes a year: 20 million man.
The problem is that guru’s, and PEOPLE too, see different systems as RIVALS, competition…conflicting ways of seeing things. While the truth is that most of it is saying it in other words, complementary or deepening what another system didn’t dig into enough. I for example LOVE being dressed like brad p’s social stereotypes, while using the juggler method I perspective and big questions while being David D. cocky & funny with my visualizing, NLP storytelling and Mystery magic tricks that I sometimes use ONline on Race and Kelly, and sometimes during the day with my buddy Vin Di Carlo. Catch my drift? There are MASSIVE opportunities for guru’s in connecting with each other, other self-help areas, marketing guru’s AND students of human behavior.
- Last but not least: lack of integrity and honesty (like NOT telling forum members why you REALLY banned them OR…NOT telling your employees they have been replaced)= loss of business, because people WON’T sleep on it. The reason why generating attraction works is communication, so what I myself wonder is WHY some people are having a hard time communicating with people other then females?
Because they didn’t study business communication, practises and management enough. That’s why.
Comment by Max on 14 August 2008:
Actually, the story with Charisma Arts is a little more complex than separating with Christian Hudson two years ago and with Dan now.
Take a look at the list of people who parted ways with CA in the last two years:
Christian Hudson (the co-founder, business manager, web developer)
Rick (instructor)
Eric (instructor)
Kate (female instructor)
Matt Savior (instructor)
Val (business manager)
Matt (business manager)
Landon (media manager)
Kevin (business manager)
Alec (instructor)
Jayson (business manager, senior instructor)
Judson (senior instructor)
Locky (instructor)
Kory (master instructor)
Joe (instructor)
Laura (web developer)
Dimitri (senior instructor)
Johnny Saviour (vice president, master instructor)
Chad (senior instructor)
Dan (senior instructor)
It’s 20 people - possibly more. Makes one wonder. A man who goes through people like this ust definitely have issues, and his company is definitely unstable, ready to explode any time.
People usually disappear from Charisma Arts immediately after a public event of some sort. The next event is this September. Who’s next to go? My prediction is Troy or Jamie. Most likely Troy.
Comment by DoublePoppa on 20 August 2008:
I was an apprentice with Charisma Arts to be one of their instructors. I loved the work and think they are doing great things but the same thing happened to me that happened to Dan. Its frustrating because I never received any response from my repeated calls and text messages. I wish things had ended differently because they are good people but communication within the company definitely seems to be a weakness from my experience and this story.