Ross Jeffries Vs Sean Messenger
It looks as though Ross Jeffries is again using his guerrilla “controversy” tactics to get more publicity in a world that now has a 0% carefactor for him. He’s the man that time forgot. This time instead of against David Wygant it’s against Sean Messenger. While Sean gets old at times with his free love approach to things, I find this a good piece of back and forth that reveals even more about Ross:
Here’s what went down on Sean’s blog:
Dude…Sean…..do you even have a triple digit IQ? Listen asshole, you get women on your looks only. You don’t belong teaching… you belong on a beer truck.
Then Sean…
Good to hear from you, my friend. For those who don’t know, RJ is the founder of the pickup community, and a great inspiration to me. I understand completely your ferocity at defending the teaching from total frauds and rip-off artists.
I’m just on the Path like everyone else and sharing what I know, and I totally agree with you that looks matter. What you want in a woman you should cultivate in yourself. If you want her to take care of her body, to smile, to look her best, and to project a happy, friendly vibe, then it starts with you.
It doesn’t matter what you look like. There are literally millions of guys better looking than me (look at that cheesy mustache, for god’s sake!). But there’s a difference between being good-looking and looking good.
Do your best to present your best self. Just as you wouldn’t go to an important job interview looking like shit, nor should you content yourself with looking your worst if you want to draw attractive women into your life.
Anyone can go to the gym and get in shape. Anyone can get a good haircut (just see my man Fabian here in Miami Beach… best cut EVER, and all for $18!). Anyone can find clothes that flatter them.
Then you combine that appearance with a genuine Love for people, with enthusiasm, and with interest, and you will attract quality women into your life.
Ross retorts:
Wow. What profound advice. Look your best. Smile. Be well groomed.
And you think people should PAY to hear this?
Where is the originality? Where is the impact? Where is the power?
But you missed my point, Sean, so I’ll try to make it again:
Since you are good looking and have ALWAYS done well with women, you can’t possibly understand the problems, blocks and barriers of guys who are not in your situation.
This is a matter of what you understand, not your intent.
Look here:
This guy got laid with 16 women at the time of recording this video, and one of them was a lesbian. He was a virgin when he first got my stuff and his social life consisted of taking a walk, once a day, outside of his house.
Can you really help guys like THIS? There are more of them than you can possibly hope to count.
Your haters here can attack me until they are blue in the face, but let’s see anyone match these results.
You don’t transform guys like the one in this video with trite advice to dress better or go to the gym. And you, having always been a natural, can’t possibly understand the world of a guy like this.
And so you can’t help him, or millions more like him.
But you can and do distract him and guys like him with advice that may work for someone with YOUR experience, but could NEVER work for him(or them).
That is my real issue with you, Wygant, Zan Perrion, etc.
You guys are like the 6 foot 10, 350 lb guy who tells the little guys how to win a fight in a bar.
“Fuck that fancy shit. Just swing on them and hit them once!”
You mean well. I get that. But you don’t get what it truly takes to help guys who are truly trapped. And so you are getting the way of the help they truly need.
And to the haters: when YOU can get results with your teaching like the guy in this video got from mine, then you can open up your mouths.
Finishing with Sean…
Thank you for coming on here. I got nothing but Love and Respect for you, not only as the Founding Father of this whole community, but also for speaking your mind and damn the consequences. If only more men had the courage of their convictions.
I agree with you, again, that starting out with some genetic advantages makes it tougher for some students to relate. But I stand by my work and my experience. I NEVER did well with women until I learned how to relax. I was the girl-crazy kid who would pen painful poems and love notes to cheerleaders, and never work up the nerve just to ask a girl out.
I’ve been in tremendous slumps and gone through a lot of periods where I thought “damnit, if I was better-looking this would be easy. Life is so unfair.”
I think the point I want to make is wherever you start, YOU decide where to go from there. Listen, if you are 4′9″ and have one eye in the middle of your forehead and hair covering your entire body, you will not get the same immediate response from women that Brad Pitt does.
But that doesn’t mean you can’t do the best with what you have by improving not only your appearance, but your posture, your breathing, your smile, your ability to make others smile, your emotional openness and depth, and your capacity for Love without conditions or expectations.
That’s what I will keep exploring and writing about until my dying day. We all have untapped potential to Give Love, and it’s our sacred responsibility to do that to our best until we draw our last breath.
I’m going on the record again and saying that I don’t think Ross Jeffries is the “Father” of the Seduction Community. Did he play a role? Sure. But if anyone has had the most influence on what the Seduction Community stands for now it would be a combination of Mystery, David Deangelo and Neil Strauss, not some 80’s hypnosis teacher who flames people that try and make a difference in guys lives. Maybe I’m just slightly creeped out by him not having upper teeth. Ross must be struggling with business if he’s making all this controversy. Is he stressed about things?
Popularity: 3%
Comment by m0in10nz on 22 April 2008:
http://rossjeffries.justgotowned.com
Comment by sting on 22 April 2008:
Story minus BS -
Jeffries says, “Sean, your teachings are not effective for WBAFCs,
mine is much better”.
Sean replies, “i’m for what i’m for, but i respect your opinion”.
Jeffries is probably right.
which isn’t to say that Sean and others like him aren’t useful to more advanced students, or that they have absolute nothing to offer the WBAFCs.
Comment by Ross Jeffries on 22 April 2008:
Exactly right.
Sean(and the rest) can’t effectively help/teach WBAFCs.
I’m the only one that can.
Say what you want, my stuff works.
Here is proof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcMoyvUrYIo
And here is MORE proof:
http://www.speedseduction.biz/resources.php
Oh, how about THIS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6KwmEY04Ko
My work speaks for itself.
It may not be comforting to hear that not everyone’s work has value even if they mean well. But it doesn’t change the truth of it.
RJ
Comment by Yummy Stale Bread on 22 April 2008:
At this point I just feel Ross Jeffries is a nitwit. He posted the following comment in response to my review of the Dr. Phil Show:
I will just allow my work to speak for itself.
Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMPYBv1Nimg
And this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjtDRBp0Cq0
Former suicidal virgin gets laid with 16 women AND bangs a lesbian:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlOgzsXCvgo
When you can get results like this for YOUR students, you can open your mouth and criticize.
RJ
http://www.speedseduction.biz
Now seriously, I don’t teach, I don’t have my own company, I am learning this stuff on my own and applying it on my own. I am entitled to criticize Ross Jeffries whenever I feel like it and he can do diddly squat about it. He posts video interviews of his students claiming results as though that proves a damn thing. Show me a hidden camera video filmed by an independent source of his students going from opening to f-closing and then maybe I will believe his load of shit nonsense.
Instead of wasting his time surfing the internet and criticizing Sean Messenger, me and whoever else is out there, he should be going out there and meeting new people or bettering himself in some way and not acting like a freaking 5 year old having a tantrum because people have a negative opinion of him after he acted like a complete imbecile on national television.
Comment by jaht on 23 April 2008:
ross you need to find a new hobby instead of bashing other so called pua’s who may or may not be good at what they do.
the fact is your only being an ass because you want to shove your own products down my throat.
Comment by Sasuke on 23 April 2008:
Seriously, Ross need some hug, I mean A LOT OF HUG!! Because, today, nobody really care about his’s material / teaching. So … he want to create his own publicty by mocking and bad mouthing other “Gurus”, so a lot of people can still hear his name and his website, and maybe can capture some dumb jackass to buy Ross’s product. A FREE ADVERTISING!! LOL. If you paid a close attention to the guys / students that Ross posting on as his free video sample, you will noticed that that guys don’t have self respect, they didn’t take care their hyiene, their clothing, a really bad body language … like 5 years old kid, they even accept that they being make like a fool by Ross, LOL –> That guy that wear red t-shirt and showing his hairy chest at the end of his video.
One time ago, I watched another free video sample from Ross, he said that this guys (his student) is a complete loser when it comes to women, divorced, always get rejected, and then after studying Ross’s material, this guy transformed in just 24 hours, I’m quite surprises, BUT … this video make me laugh really bad eventually, because this guy on that video, successfully slept with a stripper, LOL!! Not, with a mature – well educated women that has her together.
I’m not surprised, LOL. On that video, that stripper even showing her’s breast on the camera crew, can you imagine that? If she can do that, that is really nothing can prevent Ross’s material / his student to get laid with that women. Seriously, and Ross said that he successfully transformed this guy into ladies man.
Personally, I don’t really have personal problem with Ross’s material, but always seing him want to be the best in the seduction world by beating other people is not the correct answer, I think he already heard this old saying “Raise the sea level so every ships can arise” or something like that … I heard that quote from David DeAngelo himself …
Oohh yeah … one question for you Ross, what you did with David DeAngelo’s girlfriend? Can you explain to us? Why David DeAngelo kick you out from his “Guru” list? LOL.
-Sasuke-
Comment by Sasuke on 23 April 2008:
Btw Ross … I don’t know if this is where you are going, but I will call you by your nick name from now on … which is … “The Angry Seduction Nerd” …
Comment by Chunner on 23 April 2008:
Ross Jeferies has bad breath.
Comment by jaht on 24 April 2008:
yea sasuke, maybe hes related to this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjUz8IT0CYg
Comment by Jordan Harbinger on 24 April 2008:
Wow, lol, maybe we should invite Sean to The Art of Charm LA bootcamp on May 2-4. It’d be a battle Royale.
-Jordan Harbinger
http://www.pickuppodcast.com
http://www.theartofcharm.com
Comment by Ross Jeffries on 24 April 2008:
Do it Jordan! How about me and Stephane Hemon vs. Messenger and Wygant in a tag-team steel-cage grudge match?
DO IT!
RJ
Comment by Rob on 30 April 2008:
I just read on Sean’s blog he’s quitting the scene.
Hope it doesn’t have to do with this.
Anyway. I’m pretty new in this whole thing, but I’m trying to absorb as much as possible from it. The Game, Venusian Arts, Free podcasts, you name it.. I’m on it. And also some of Seans’ material. Baseline, I just go through everything, don’t have any preference and I think I have an objective view on all of it.
Just like Sean, I’m also considerably better looking then the RJ or the Guy in the video, but that doesn’t mean AT ALL I get girls merely on my looks! I’ve always been to a guys only high school, all my friends had girlfriends, when I didn’t even have balls to approach or talk, I was shy, etc etc.
In a nutshell, I’m living proof Sean has a fair audience: When reading Seans’ posts, I always kind of felt his flow and knew what he meant. I felt like I was one of the few that could relate. I drew lessons from it. I saw him as older and wiser. I think it may have even made me a better man. I also like the variety of subjects he is covering. From seduction to breaking up like a man. Who else covers this anyway? For me breaking up with girls is sometimes harder then seducing them..
So as a conclusion Ross, just like products have different target groups, this scene may have different audiences. You as a marketing minded guy should know this.
Comment by SmoothDoc on 16 December 2008:
Hi Ross,
I would like to see that.
You and Sean in a debate.
It’s a pity you can not make it until now to the Real Man Conference 2009. It would be so easy to organise with Sean already in Europe than.
Anyway I keep hoping to get you once on our stage in the Netherlands.
Cu,
SmoothDoc
Comment by painkiller on 20 December 2008:
In the future of humankind, treating each other with respect and co-operation will be overwhelmingly prevalent because we’re already moving rapidly in that direction, if you care to look deeply enough.
RJ has valid points, but Sean doesn’t promise anything along the lines of speed seduction. He teaches a different kind of thing. Lots of guys go from speed seduction to his stuff and find value for them in it. I’m one of them. Yeah, I did two full RJ courses and now I like seans work too. To be blunt, RJ takes this stuff too seriously, like he’s obsessed with saving these poor boys and sean messenger is basically gaston in beauty and the beast. I don’t mean to invalidate his valid and interesting points, but there’s room for everybody. Lots of people probably go from lv03 on to find value in SS.
If he were promising in his sales letters something else than what he is doing, then maybe RJ should be calling him out. But all you are doing RJ is calling out yourself as a hard to get along with person. I used to be like you, get the same kind of rep from the general public. For me, I started listening to too much hippie music I guess. Now I’m nice to everyone even when they are unfairly crtical of me, and people see me as fun and genuinely loving and focued on what is important about life. getting along well in a community
Comment by Sean on 25 December 2008:
First things first RJ is the founding father and Mystery and Neil Straus has admitted that several times. Secondly, David Deangelo (Eben Pagan) Neil Straus are friends of RJ. People you are all been had the community is only there to extract money from you. Ross is making alot of money he has a hardcore following and doesnt just focus on seduction. David Deangelo spends more time selling altitude business products than he does seduction. This debate is a nonsense and only serves to serve the people (Ross and Sean) by highlighting their features and benefits.
Just look at all the dudes out there now making tons of money from seduction and claiming to be guru’s…..how do we know they are gurus and not snake oil merchants alot of the material is recycled and packaged differently to give the illusion of authenticity. Seduction is not rocket science nor is it a vehicle to abuse women. I can see why the likes of Sean Messenger is leaving as seduction is no longer a community its an industry and so called guru’s are nothing of the sort and people who buy these products deserve to be ripped off.
Comment by mark on 2 March 2009:
Ross Jeffries is a deeply distraught Mentally Ill person…
I have seen him sarge a girl in an outback restaraunt in Vacaville,CA and it was no different than David Deangelo Approaching her… Cocky funny and busting her balls…
He claimed he was staying true to his Swede Girlfriend and its understandable and he probably could of got this girl in the hay if he wanted thats a possibility but the staff eventually kept switching waitresses and they seemed to be getting creeped out by him and I was afraid they would kick us out on the count of his strange behavior..
Before we went to the outback I met up with him at his hotel where i saw him in the lobby and he was consulting a student… I had the creepiest vibe infact i a part of me wanted to leave and probably should of.
As we were waiting in the lobby for others Ross started flipping out like some paranoid Scitzo wanting us to be like teh Secret service checking all the corners of the hotel for people out to get him.
He kept asking us to check up on some middle aged lady with a newborn child getting a hotel room like some stalker because he thought she was going to hurt him or something…
Even another vacation middle aged married couple he made them feel very uncomfortable.. i didnt know whether to call 911 or not the guys going to crack any minute…
We were all afraid of him and he could stop staring at me I almost puched him a few times in the outback for indirectly insulting me and attempting making fun of me in front of others, it too alot for me to hold myself back…
His Manners are extremely terrible.. I cannot understand why this gentleman is not in the mental hospital… Is far beyond me…
I do thank him for his comapssion and help along me through the years and I hope things get better for him..
He does deserve some award for bring SS to the world and his dedication to it but the guy is batshit crazy and extremely dangerous…
I have learned that Ross and another co developer abuse Nlp techniques an covert hypnosis and give harmful suggestions in there material to coerce and sabotage efforts of success in his students to keep them in a never ending loop of almost successes to keep them in his herd and under his control…
Since i have left these two My life is much better and more satisfying and my skills have accelerate tremendously…
I still watch alot of his products but now that I am aware of harmfull suggestions I delete it and take the positve and curriculum from the courses…
as a newbie stay way from them its not worth the mental danger it can cause..
I am an advanced student and I understand hypnosis and well trained at it…
My suggestion for the more hypnosis based PUA training is Vince Kelvin….
vinces Anxiety approaching products ARE THE BEST ON THE MARKET!! in my opinion….
So my take on SS is I dont like his approaches and I dont like his first stages of game… so to put it in a mystery method metaphor SS is only good for use at c1 to s3…
I like Deangelos openers and Myteries openers the best…Vinces are great also…
Infact I dont even open much anymore, I dont have to.
As for the new SS 3.0 Ross uses PUA tactics in his new model
????????????
and also Loaded with negative suggestion…
also whats up with a shirt that says go fuck youself when you are using NLP to train your students??????
thats not very smart….
Just my honest opinion….
Comment by The Zee on 28 July 2009:
Ok so i’m brand new to this community…obviously discovering it through the game…yeah stereotypical and a bit late…agreed.
anywayz, i just want to make one comment. Something that I’ve noticed. The “Guru’s” are intune with woman. They know what to do, etc etc…but so far all this “infighting” has shown me that they don’t have people skills!!!! I mean Ross Jeffries (yes your old…and you’ve been in the game before i was even sperm probably) keeps fuelling the fire against himself…all you have to do, is laff off your competition..if you’re better and you BELIEVE your better it’ll come through…trashing people..or trying to “show off” with youtube videos just amplifies that you have insecurities about your own game…best example on how to behave…look at how microsoft deals with opensource…they keep quiet and dish out awesome new products…and they still dominate the market…just do marketing dude…don’t do retailation…ok thats my 2c…