The battle of the century has erupted. 
In an unprovoked attack on David Wygant, Ross Jeffries delivered his typical rebuking:
David Wygant, could you help a guy like this:
I actually worked with your former client Jeremiah. He said you took him for nearly $10,000 and helped him not one bit; that he actually had to chase you down to get him to return your calls.
After two sessions with me(for which I didn’t even charge him, I was so angry at your conning him) he lost his viriginity finally, at age 29. It’s guys like you that really piss me off. I would love to knock your sorry ass out of business.
RJ
David responded
If this insult came from someone I respect as a man then it would sting. But from a man that hates everyone in the industry I find it actually quite comical! As for Jeremiah I worked with him for 2 hours and the last time I checked I do not charge 5000 an hour. So besides some anger management issues Ross also is incapable of simple addition!
This is why I am in business so men have a choice and don’t have to deal with angry dating gurus like Ross!!
Its all about a choice and I am glad that ross was able to get Jeremiah laid. My style is the total opposite of Ross and the great thing about this industry is that men have a choice of whom to work with. If someone wants to learn seduction from Ross then go for it.
But he needs to get his facts straight, jeremiah is 26 and was not a virgin. Its funny but Ross seems to hate everyone in this industry. Do you think it reflects how he feels about himself?
Life is a mirror. That’s all for me.
I guess it’s that time of year again when we can all get ready for summer and have a small dose of dating guru rivalry. If it came down to it, whose side would you be on? Who have you had better results with, or who would you want to learn from?
Learn more from David Wygant by checking his website, by clicking here.
{ 72 comments… read them below or add one }
Ross is getting out of control. I came home last night and to my surprise, find an email from Ross Jeffries in my inbox talking trash to me. I assume it was because of my criticism of him on the Dr. Phil show in a comment I left on this blog earlier. The funny part is he attacked me as if I were a guru who teaches pick-up, which I’m not. I’m a writer and a blogger. All I do is chronicle my journey of self-improvement, yet now I have Ross emailing me telling me that I “haven’t got a clue” on how to teach pick-up….WTF…I never said I did.
It seems like Ross is now attacking people just for the sake of it. This man is supposed to be a seduction expert yet he has failed to connect with a majority of this seduction community, those that would support his business. I just don’t get it.
Well, even though I just posted a few hours back in response to Ross’ comments – or more accurately accusations – on David Wygant’s Online Seduction article, I want to weigh in on this debate also.
As I stated previously, I have studied both of their methods and used both of their methods “in the field.” I will grant that Ross’ methods can get you laid … if all you are interested in is getting laid, it is a system that can work. What I didn’t like about it was having to use those corny routines – no matter how hard I tried, they never felt natural and I never felt that I had done anything to myself that was an internal change. I did get laid using Ross’ system, but I didn’t truly feel any more confident about myself or my ability to connect with women.
When I discovered David Wygant’s stuff, what immediately interested me in learning about it was his “natural game” or “anti-routine” basis for interacting with women. Most important was that he teaches you that becoming a powerful and authentically confident man is the essential element to being able to attract and connect on a deep level with ANY woman.
When I worked on, and really became, a confident and powerful man, I not only met as many (if not more) women than I did using Ross’ methods, but I felt TOTALLY COMFORTABLE approaching women and, as an unexpected side effect, women were approaching ME! Unbelievable!!! I feel like he has helped me become the man I’ve always wanted to be … and when I did that the women (& the kind of women I’ve always wanted!) followed!
In this battle, to me David Wygant wins hands down! And, as an aside, I was disappointed to see how Ross seems to really be … what I can only imagine to be either jealous or bitter.
David, if you happen to get wind of this new head-to-head, thank you man for your awesome advice!!! Keith
There is a lot of skeeze in this industry. The DR. Phil show and others are slowly exposing the worst of it to the light of day (which is the best disinfectant anyway). David W seems to be less gross than most. Here’s hoping the industry continues to get weeded of all the shysters and con artists.
Ha. Guys no one can even take this guy seriously. He recently flamed Sean Messenger too. It’s freaking ridiculous. You can tell by the way he writes he’s just trying as hard as he can to flame someone else. I have no time for people like that who just exaggerate and flame just to flame.
It’s like you don’t even have to reply. All you have to do is post it on your blog and everyone will automatically just laugh at him and lower his value.
He’s the only one who acts like this in the community I think. Been doing it for years. He gets feedback but doesn’t listen to it, thus he limits himself.
“Devaginized her?” Ok lets pick that word apart…if you devaganized her….she had no vagina…therefore, you f’d yourself!
What losers you both are in this video.
Honestly, I find you both disgusting, as well as VERY unattractive in EVERY way there is to be so.
I cannot imagine the “type” of women who are dumb enough to get near you, much less sleep with you. kiss you …ENOUGH before I make myself sick!
You are a joke, so let me end this with one big laugh…LOL The jokes not ON you it IS you!
I don’t know who your talking about but I have to interject miss Joan.
I don’t know why some women seem to feel they have the right to drag a guy through the mud because they like to pickup girls – as if that poor asshole is grovelling for your attention and you have the right to decide whether he should live or die, seriously YOU make me sick. So what if someone IS a douchebag, that’s his problem. What gives you the right to launch into attack mode on principle alone? Do you think your God? Hitler? What is your problem?
Seriously guys, we give women too much credit sometimes I think we need to be harder on them and more discerning. Maybe they should be giving us the attention for a change.
A few months ago I paid little attention to David Wygant, I really knew nothing about his teachings or him as a person. But as time has gone on, the more I become familiar with his teachings, the more I respect him. The exact opposite is true of Jeffries. I have been very familiar with his work since I began my journey in this community and the more I get to know him, the less I respect him. If I was to pay someone to better me in this area of my life, it would go to David Wygant hands down over Ross Jeffries any day.
From what I’ve seen Ross seems pretty bitter towards people in the community.
I’d go with Wygant.
There’s something about Ross in interviews it just doesn’t seem right, vibewise.
David Wygant over Ross for sure.. All Ross is doing is trash talking himself out of business (hopefully). Anyone who’s conscious enough will see through this front. He’s acting as if attack is the best defense. I guess you can’t deny him whatever contribution he has given to pickup but that’s it. Once PU got momentum and more guru’s started to practice and teach it has evolved to the better, much much better. That’s my 00.2
lol? what the hell is ross doing? totally uncalled for and unprofessional. Ross needs to get a life.
@Joan: I think he said “Devirginized her” which seems just as lame.
David Wygant all the way.
Ross needs a DW bootcamp!!
Ooww … Ross again … after he makes himself like a jackass in Dr. Phil show, now … he insulted David Wygant … what an asshole Ross is, I think he is really insecure … because, as a self proclaimed “Master Guru” in seduction … what will happen if people stop buying all of his stuffs, because people lost faith in him, and see the real him? HA HA HA … he can be the true role model a “True Jackass” in seduction community.
If you ever watched the movie “Merlin”, you will see a the main villain (the witch) which is really similar to Ross Jeffries, especially at the end of the movie, which is when “Merlin” actually find a way how to kill the witch … which is … to denied her as a living human being, and ask all the people to even remember if she is ever alive. And, what happen after that? She disappear from this world.
I think what Ross really trying to do actually is to make a real “Fuss” / “Gossip” in the seduction community … so all people will keep talking and mentioning his name as a the first man that teach seduction, master of all master, so people will come to his website and buy his money, also establish his name as the guru of all guru.
At first I want to buy his program, because I’m really curious about using NLP to seduce women, like what I heard about Ross’s teaching … but, after I read what Ross did to David DeAngelo’s girlfriend, Dr. Phill’s show, and always bad mouthing Mystery Method, Real Social Dynamic, and now … David Wygant? Forget it … I don’t want to become a MONSTER like Ross just in order to learn how to be successful with women.
Feel free to copy and paste my post to other seduction’s blog.
-Sasuke-
Man… what the hell is going on?
You know, I don’t know Ross so I can’t make any judgments of him, but I do know David… and he’s a pretty cool guy.
I wonder what all the “buzz” building is about?
Ok let’s see… whose side am I on? Who’s material have I had better results with? Who would I rather learn from? The answer to all three of these questions for me is DAVID!!!! I mean don’t get me wrong, Ross has his own thing going on and I’m sure it works for some people… but frankly his personality sucks and he seems like a very angry man. David, on the other hand, is a great guy who teaches a more natural way to pick up a girl. So for me, Wygant will always be the superior in my book.
Here is the larger issue-
David has been doing this for a long time. He’s dealt with at least hundreds of guys, if not more.
When you do this long enough, you begin to get a very good sense of who is stuck and how deeply and whom you just cannot help.
Jeremiah was one of the most deeply stuck guys I’ve ever worked with.
I find it difficult to believe that David couldn’t tell, within 20 minutes of talking with him, that Jeremiah required help that David could not possibly provide.
In my own case, occasionally, guys come to me who are so disturbed that in my evaluation, I cannot help them and I tell them so. After about 10 minutes of talking I tell them exactly that and will not take any amount of money from them.
In some rare cases, I’ll inquire if the client is under professional psychiatric or other medical care and if they still want to come to a seminar, I require a signed and dated letter from their professional care-giver, stating that in the care-giver’s opinion, the person is mentally fit enough to attend the event.
So my point is: David probably can and DOES help a certain level of guys. If you’ve had some success in the past, he might be able to up your game.
But in my estimation, at least 50% of the guys who are drawn to personal coaching/live events of any kind fit into Jeremiah’s category and anyone without some deep level understanding and training in personal change work will not be able to assist them.
I find it very difficult to believe that David wasn’t able to evaluate Jeremiah and quickly see that he was not someone that David could help.
Maybe a newbie at coaching would not get this, but David isn’t a newbie. He’s been at it for years.
So either he isn’t able to evaluate people or at least in this case, wasn’t paying attention or didn’t care to.
In this game, you are going to get people at all sorts of stages. Some will be already doing well and just looking to polish their game. Others will be struggling and some will be deeply stuck-and my guess is the DS category is at least 50%
David should not be working with people in that category and needs to refer them out.
And more interesting to me is this: I broke Jeremiah’s depression and learned helplessness in two sessions. Yet I see NO curiosity from David on how I was able to do it.
Caveat Emptor
RJ
I’ve took a bootcamp with David two months ago, and it helped my lifestyle and “game” tremendously.
David teaches people how to “be” the man that attract people, instead of giving you cheesy little lines to hypnotize girl.
David can also back up all the shit he says, he IS the confident man with inner game, he IS able to talk and attract any stranger. However on the other side, for someone who preaches core confidence and being positive, RJ definitely does not show any of it from criticizing other people on the net, instead of giving out real value and have something worthwhile to say.
Anyhow, i will say David Wygant’s coaching is worth every single dime of it, he empowers you to be the man that you’re meant to be. and put it in a way that can be easily understand and apply to your life. If you think his blog is amazing, you guys should definitely check out his coaching sessions, because it is really tremendously life changing.
If any of you have what David does on his boot camp, you can ask me more about it. And I’d be glad to tell you my experience, and what I got out of it.
Hey guys,
Ross vs David Wygant? now thats a easy one…..
Mr. Wygant the Winner!!!
I worked with David last year, I used to be big or should I say computer nerd, now I am living a lifestyle that I don’t chase women but have women support me live a great life. I am currently in a serious relationship with a great girl. Thanks David for all the help.
God bless you David!
Wow, this looks to be a mess. In a strange coincidence, both Ross Jeffries and David Wygant will be guest instructing at the L.A. bootcamp coming up this May 2-4, 2008.
Seriously though, this is going to be a killer bootcamp, especially with these new special guests hitting us up to give special presentations just for the Art of Charm crew & students.
Unfortunately there are only a few more spots left at this bootcamp.
If you’re interested, give us a call here at AoC headquarters: +1.917.720.4104
Looking forward to meeting you in L.A.!
-Jordan
http://www.theartofcharm.com
Speaking of Jordan, he did a fantastic interview with me on
Pickuppodcast.
If you really want to contrast the quality of my ideas and my ability as a teacher with Wygant’s, go to pickuppodcast.com
I’m episode 41 and 42.
I don’t know which Wygant’s is.
Bottom line: 50% of the people who come to any live event or go to any kind of coaching have significant learning and other issues that Wygant and the rest of the community is incapable of addressing.
I can address AND fix these issues and I am the only one who can.
Listen to episode 41 and 42 and you’ll see why you will agree.
RJ
http://www.speedseduction.biz/nailyourinnergamepromo.php
I spent 2 hours with Jeremiah, and helped unblock him of certain issues which I will not reveal. It was not just about getting laid it was deeper.
I have the emails between us and, unlike Ross, I do not feel the need to expose my ex client’s private information.
If Ross had spoken to me as a professional in our emails back and forth, I would have been very interested in how he unstuck Jeremiah.
I have never trashed Ross in my 10 years of doing this. My methods are the opposite of his, and I actually have directed some clients over to his NLP stuff. When they want to learn about NLP, I always ask them if they have
tried Ross Jeffries.
As all of you know, I am an open person and treat everyone with respect. I have enjoyed meeting all the gurus in this industry. Even if I don’t agree with some of their methods, I have learned from each of them.
Plus, I tell each of my clients to find the coach whose methods resonates with them. We all have different methods. I have successfully coached people who are newbies and people with some game.
There is no one size fits all approach that works with everyone. That is just marketing bullshit. No one can help everyone, and people are too smart to fall for that.
People need to find the expert that resonates with them. There is plenty choice out there to choose from and what works for one may not work for another person.
I personally speak to each person before I coach them to assess their needs and expectations. Once that is done I move forward with the next step.
Ross has never spent any time with me, and he has no idea how I conduct my business. Plus, he is making a judgment based on one person with whom we both worked.
Instead of this back and forth bullshit, I am once again extending a lunch invitation to Ross so we can get to know each other’s philosophies. Then if something like this comes up we can better help all of you succeed with women and, more importantly, gain that inner confidence that lasts a lifetime (and not just one night)!
Name the place Ross and I am buying.
David, why don’t you ever buy me lunch? =(
This whole things smells of a giant publicity stunt… Ross and David are doing a bootcamp together next month.
theartofcharm.com
Actually, it’s not. We invited both of them to speak just a few days ago, AFTER this post came out on the web.
-Jordan
http://www.theartofcharm.com
David,
It looks like our publicity gimmick just got exposed.
But let’s pretend to fight at the upcoming Artofcharm bootcamp so we can get more people to come and split the fat commission check, ok?
Ok, here I go on “asshole” mode:
DAVID WYGANT, I AM GOING TO KICK YOUR ASS AND MAKE YOU CRY LIKE A GIRL WHEN WE DEBATE AT THE UPCOMING THEARTOFCHARM.COM bootcamp!
WATCH ME TURN DAVID’S FRILLY PINK PANTIES BROWN AS HE CRAPS HIS PANTS AT MY TEACHING SKILLS! I AM BRINING JEREMIAH WITH ME TO SPILL THE BEANS ON DAVID!
PENCIL-NECK GEEK, I WILL DESTROY YOU IN THE STEEL-CAGE GRUDGE DEBATE!
http://www.theartofcharm.com
I am looking forward to stopping by at this “Art of Charm” bootcamp now!
I don’t care who wins. It should be interesting.
In fact, virtually every internet attack on another guru that I’ve made in the past 10 years was pre-discussed and pre-arranged to generate traffic for myself and the other party.
The big squabble with Tyler? We loosely scripted that dance, although not every move was plotted out.
Thundercat? He’s one of my affiliates and collects paypal commissions every month.
Not everyone who agrees to this game is an affiliate but at least we all get traffic from it.
Same with everyone I’ve gone after and duked it out with, from MM on, with one exception; my fight with DYD was real. That guy I really just could not stand and he never forgave me for doing his girlfirend.
So now you know; them who are attacked get the warning in advance and we pretty much roll with it as long as people are interested.
But DeAngelo is a right bastard and that was NEVER planned.
RJ
There is no other guru that I really respect like David DeAngelo, he is the REAL MAN, and his material is all about teaching you to be the REAL MAN, and how to relate to women, not as a “nice polite girly guy”, but as a MATURE MAN that has his life together. Maturity = Success in life + Skill with women (I quoted Dr. Paul). And, I know his material keep improving from time to time, because he is top notch team builder (Master Mind Leader), he invite successful people that successful in bussiness and with women, he is an open person, and he give back what he learned from all of these master back to you, his usual DYD products and Interview With Dating Guru Cds, you can noticed this when you heard he teach something but based from someone else idea, and then at the end he will give the credit to that person, either by mentioning that guy name, book, or website.
I think right now, David DeAngelo / Eben is already very successful person, he makes 20 millions a year. He is not only successful with women, but also in his bussiness.
Unlike with Ross, what I always read about Ross is, he always claim himself as the best guru out there which is not, Dr. Phill’s Show … LOL. Ross is joke. Just see from all of his video sample, all of his postin on the internet, in this forum, LOL, his manerism, he is like 5 years old kid that likes to beat other people down to show that he is the “REAL JACKWUSS”, I mean “The Angry Seduction Nerd” … sorry Ross, I forgot your nick name for a sec. … When you think about this … what Ross can teach you then? To be a real jackwuss / I mean do we need another “Angry Seduction Nerd” beside him in this world? If what he do in his spare time is always fighting with other people, then he really don’t have time to learn for himself, and at the end there are no other materials that he can teach to you. Or the best way he can do is to convert one you into Ross Jeffries Jr. If that what you want, then so be it.
One thing that I can’t forgive is, if one of my friend betray / back stab me from behind, if they are lack of “Honesty, Trust, and Respect” of me. One of my friend do the same thing to my best friend (they are both best friend on each other btw.) that Ross did to David DeAngelo’s girlfriend, even though he didn’t do that to me, but I cut him out from my social circle. So, I know why David DeAngelo kick Ross out from his life, man …. can you imagine that … Your teacher eat his own student? Do you want to learn from that kind of guy? LOL!!
Another thing is, the way you behave will attract that same kind of women, if you behave like 5 years old kid, the angry seduction nerd, then you will also attract a lot of bitchy / bad women in your life. The kind of women that you want to stay aways from, not a girlfriend / wife material. You can proof this in your own life, and also seing some of Ross’s free video sample … LOL. He mentioning that he really successful turning one of his student into ladies man in just 24 hours, but what that student did actually 100% successfuly get laid with a stripper that at the end of the show … showing her’s breast in front of the camera crew, if she can do that, all men can sleep with her in just 3 sec., LOL.
So good luck Ross, I hope you get a new customer, while you bussy fighting with other people, and maybe can catch some idiot to go to your website and pay you $300 … David DeAngelo already making another $20 million sells.
This kind of reminds me of actual Bootcamp, where the Drill Sgt’s are fucking with your mind and you’re not sure whats up or down or left and right. I could see it as marketing, but then again…who knows.
If it is actually true, then you gentlemen need to just get in the cage and fight. The winner takes the winner of the Dr. Phil Vs. Me ring of fire death match.
That’s some real marketing hype right there, who’s down?
Publicity stunt – Am I missing something here? Well Ross, now it’s clear what you have been doing all along here.
This is the first I have heard of this.
Though I will admit it has been highly entertaining to see what you’ll say next – a late night treat to look forward to each day as I travel through Europe working with some very cool guys!
Ha ha ha…nice one, David. THROW THEM OFF THE SCENT!
(Nice pics from Europe; Shannon looks fantastic. Can’t wait to see her and you again, buddy!)
RJ
Whether or not he’s telling the truth here, Ross is coming across as psycho.
Ross is trying to set David up. He thinks his little mind games over the internet will make people believe this is some marketing hype and David works with him.
m0in10z, you’re right about that, he is coming off as a psycho.
Ross is trying to set David up. He thinks his little mind games over the internet will make people believe this is some marketing hype and David works with him.
m0in10z, you’re right about that, he is coming off as a psycho.
Ross you should practice what you preach. Next time your resentment heats up, just take a comfortable place and meditate to get your composure back – you should know that if you had understood the teachings of Shinzen Young which you recommend in different interviews !
Ross has always resentment against David DeAngelo because he is more sucsessful than himself. Maybe you would be more sucsessful if you start practicing what you preach. For instance next time your resentment heats up, just take a comfortable place and meditate to get your composure back – you should know that if you had understood the teachings of Shinzen Young which you recommend in different interviews !
Does anyone here actually believe that David would ever get together with Ross to fake this debate for publicity?! I think Ross seems more delusional every time he writes something. Having become familiar with both men and after having studied both men, I feel confident saying that David Wygant would have no interest in such a thing …
David Wygant feels 100% confident in his coaching methods, and doesn’t feel threatened by anyone else’s … he respects what others do, but I can’t see him wasting that much energy to do what Ross has done here.
It seems to me that all Ross has done here is try to forceably affiliate himself with David Wygant (through made up “super secret” partnerships and media stunts) so that he can become connected somehow with David’s name and reputation in this industry. For all his bravado and bragging, I’m betting that Ross feels like he needs to latch onto someone like David to bring him “back from the dead” in this business.
For anyone who has read my couple of posts regarding this “head-to-head,” you know that while I have personally found David Wygant’s methods to be far superior in terms of my overall personal improvement (as a man and with women), I gave credit to Ross for the positives in his work.
Ross’ apparent need to generate publicity solely through trash-talking, fallacious allegations, made-up stories and, particularly, unapologetic bragging to me speaks volumes about how poor his character is and how shallow his vision is for teaching men anything of true significance.
What kind of man could Ross help someone become when he himself lives a life that appears to be driven by jealousy, pettyness, and disrespect for all of his peers in this industry? Now I see that it is not coincidence that all I got from Ross’ teachings was the ability to get laid … whereas with David Wygant’s teachings I not only got laid (a lot!), but I have become a truly confident and powerful man who can connect on a deep level with any woman and is now living in the moment and truly enjoying my life!
Ross – what a sad man you are … and what a sorry example of a real man you seem to be …
This Ross’s counter to Dr. Phil show, to show to the world that he is not as idiot as he seems on that show. LOL. But, whatever Ross trying to do, we all know the fact, just see Ross;s body language, lack of integrity, bad composure, and one thing that reall tickle me … when Dr. Phil able to bait Ross to say that all of the words that Ross said as his advertisement for his product at his website like “My program will get you laid like rock star, etc2 …” is just a advertising word from him to capture man. And, not just that … also if you see the whole deal at Dr. Phil show, you will see when Ross trying to explain his teaching method to the women audience, which is to me, Ross looks like a psycho and a master of manipulative.
And, this is his counter to Dr. Phil show that I found out at Ross’s website, congratz Ross, you just make traffic in your website, but not in a good way.
Link:
http://www.speedseduction.biz/blog/
Dear Speed Seduction(R) Students,
I’ve been getting lots of questions, comments and flak about what went down on my Dr. Phil appearance last Friday.
Let me jump ahead by saying what I find most interesting and most unexpected is not the usual fan-mail from students and hate-mail(many filled with delightful ethnic slurs and anatomically impossible suggestions about fun with my deceased mother) from knuckle-heads, but the fan-mail from women who are eager to learn my seduction secrets to use on men!
In fact, the fan-mail from women is larger in volume than the other mail combined!
So I guess while the women in Dr. Phil’s audience appeared to be disinterested and even appalled, the women watching at home want to know more.
Which, in a sense shouldn’t be that surprising; I think one of the ultimate compliments and endorsements of my work is when women who had been involved with my students write to me and plead to be introduced to more of my students because they have never experienced such good feelings before and want them again!
In any case, what the knuckle-heads seem not to get is that shows like Dr. Phil aren’t just free-for all talk-fests.
Rather, each guest is assigned a potential “role” which is discussed with producers many times, and carefully fleshed out PRIOR to the show being taped.
Which is not to say this shows don’t typically have SOME kind of ambush laying in wait for at least some of the guests, but that notwithstanding, when you go on these shows, you have a general idea of what is going to go down.
In this instance, I was contacted by the producers who wanted to do a show about the dangers of the pick-up and seduction community, and, as the person who has been in it the longest, they wanted me to dish the dirt.
Given that I’ve met all of the big names(shit, next to me, I think they are all SMALL names), and that many of these “gurus” are former students in one sense or the other, I think they made a good casting choice.
The Taping
I arrive to the taping to discover that the first three segments will star a few guys from “The Mystery Method”.
Now, those of you who saw the show may have noticed that the real Mystery-Erik Von Markovic-was nowhere to be seen.
You see, the lovely guys who were on the show presenting themselves as “the Mystery Method” founders are actually involved in a vicious lawsuit with the REAL Mystery, whose name and web domain they have taken.
I certainly don’t have a dog in that fight, which wasn’t actually going on at the time the show was taped in 2006.
But I do have my problems with some of the things taught in MM, no matter whom is doing the teaching, most notably the elements of punishment and control of women, which I find vile, disgusting and completely unnecessary.
As I keep teaching, when you capture and lead a woman’s imagination and emotions, and give her feelings she’s never had before, you don’t need to invalidate her or use any kind of punishment.
The worst “punishment” is simply to stop giving her the good feelings and to go away.
So, as was required by my role, and by my honest opinions, I went after these guys with all of my veteran talk-show skills-they were virgins and I’ve been on dozens and dozens of them.
The Big Edit-I Shut Up Dr. Phil, But You Didn’t See It!
You may have noticed that Dr. Phil kept dogging me about my over-the-top marketing.
What you didn’t see is that, at one point, I interrupted him and said, “Look; I’m just doing with my marketing what your producers do with your preview clips. They take the most titilating parts and edit them to entice people to watch your show instead of change the channel. I’ve got to do the same thing on the internet to keep people from clicking off my site.”
Dr. P actually look startled and didn’t know what to say for about half a second. Then he retorted, “Wait a minute! What you see in those clips is REAL. What you see on this show is REAL!”
At which point I turned my back on him, looked right in the camera and said, “If anyone here in the audience or anyone watching this at home thinks that this show isn’t heavily scripted and edited to manipulate your emotions, welcome to your fantasy world!”
I kinda thought they’d cut it, and sure enough, they proved me right.
The Meaning Of It All
Nothing. Zip. Nada. This whole thing is generating lots of buzz in the blogosphere, some fun and juicy flame-wars, but ultimately, like all talk-shows, it is just a flash in the pan. These shows are watched almost entirely by women in any case, and from a publicity stand-point, it is often the follow-up offers of interviews from more appealing markets in radio and print that pan out best, business-wise.
One bit of advice I will give you-if you ever get a call from a talk-show producer to be on a TV show like Phil or Orca Windbag, etc, be assured they can, do and WILL lie to you about what will go down.
Someone once said that politicians are people who couldn’t cut it as child-molester and who couldn’t get into the Mafia.
TV talk-show producers are people who couldn’t cut it as politicians.
Peace and piece,
RJ
P.S. Watch for my upcoming blog post: “The Myth of Approach Anxiety”.
This Ross’s counter to Dr. Phil show, to show to the world that he is not as idiot as he seems on that show. LOL. But, whatever Ross trying to do, we all know the fact, just see Ross;s body language, lack of integrity, bad composure, and one thing that reall tickle me … when Dr. Phil able to bait Ross to say that all of the words that Ross said as his advertisement for his product at his website like “My program will get you laid like rock star, etc2 …” is just a advertising word from him to capture man. And, not just that … also if you see the whole deal at Dr. Phil show, you will see when Ross trying to explain his teaching method to the women audience, which is to me, Ross looks like a psycho and a master of manipulative.
And, this is his counter to Dr. Phil show that I found out at Ross’s website, congratz Ross, you just make traffic in your website, but not in a good way.
Ross, if you want compare yourself to David DeAngelo, well … you just asking for trouble, see it for yourself how big David DeAngelo right now:
Link:
http://www.mantransformationblog.com/
nuff said
lol, ah well, we’ll settle this during the debate between RJ and David Wygant: “Speed Seduction versus Natural Game” sponsored by PickUp Podcast. Of course, there will be video and audio of the event, so stay tuned for that.
-Jordan
http://www.pickuppodcast.com
http://www.theartofcharm.com
Just filmed the debate. It was awesome. Stay tuned for the video and audio (at http://www.pickuppodcast.com)
-Jordan
I was at that Los Angeles Art of Charm bootcamp that Jordan mentioned–which by the way, was great–and pretty much the stage was set for a post debate mixed martial arts showdown…
In one corner of the room–which sort of resembled a boxing ring–there was Ross with his girfriend, and in the other, there was David with his dog. Both of ‘em were about the same height. Their was a buzz in the air, a little bit of tension, and then…
Well, they both behaved like English gentlemen meeting for tea at the country cottage, which was probably the best thing, because Jordan was also in the house wearing his Fedora and I don’t think he would appreciated having the LAPD show up with their nightsticks…
The bottom line, they both had some good stuff to teach. I think David hit it on the nail:
“There is no one size fits all approach that works with everyone. That is just marketing bullshit. No one can help everyone, and people are too smart to fall for that.
People need to find the expert that resonates with them. There is plenty choice out there to choose from and what works for one may not work for another person.”
To be honest i am liking this but,
Is this conflict really necessary? you guys obviously have a infinite amount of skill and are obviously both very good experts with pickup and lifestyle improvement.
so why are you two trying to dog it out over some Internet forum??it just seems to me like your both just trying to seek validation from other people
grow up and get laid guys, you two are both amazing
Well, ***I*** was at the debate, and yes, it was “gentlemanly” in this
sense: there was no name calling, no voices raised, etc.
However, there were strong disagreements and some cages DID get rattled.
You will all just have to wait for the video!
RJ
http://www.speedseduction.biz/nailyourinnergamepromo.php
Obviously, there is a lot of argument about who said what and when it was said. But these problems are usually settled very quickly when two people meet and talk about these things in the open. There are usually so many halves truths repeated by so many people that in the end nobody knows what the real truth is. I think both men have a place in the business helping those who need their help. They are both in the upper brack as this business goes. I personally have help many people with similar situations. I am an expert in dating. Lately, I have focused on helping men who are looking to date Latin women. For now I am very happy with this role. I do it for the pleasure of it. I have never read either of these guys material but have heard good things about both. I have thought about approaching one or both about helping me promote my methods.
Perhaps the two of you might find that you could learn a few good things from one another that you could incorporate into your existing material, to better the way you are obviously so stuck in doing things. Maybe you could go halfsies on a mediation/self-betterment session with the first true neuro-linguistics pimp of our time… the co-founder of NLP, the creator of Blissnosis; Richard “Muthaphukkin’” Bandler! Either way, it sure would be interesting to see how the two of you would give eachother helpful hints and/or pointers… and we could see who truely is The Master, by how much the other persons system was improved by the Real Master’s Insight & Suggestion… Ya think?
Or is self promotion and the almighty dollar really all you are both hoping to gain for your efforts? Because if you both stand behind the personas that’ve been cast before the world… then shouldn’t personal feelings, and all other nonsense take a backseat to the art, and the mastery thereof?
Oh yeah, and for the record, I peronally found RJ’s methods to be quite effective, and easiest to translate into other areas of my life… but, his ideology of secretly being a “sex-crazed mind-fucker” was and is to this day, severely off putting. So I took it upon myself to paraphrase his entire methodoly in a more ecologically sound format. Don’t get me wrong, I know Ross has stated several different ways about ” giving women a new standard and deeper way of thinking about the kind of guy she wants” etc., I just think that as the saying goes… you can’t serve two masters. Like “she won’t know what hit her” vs “you’re doing this for a mutually beneficial experience”… So I say: take the good from every system or particular format, to Create Your Own Design or template from which you will find operating becomes more natural than driving a car. Then again, I have gleened a huge advantage from having studied all of the hypnosis & NLP stuff available, and all of the seduction related materials available. Two more things. On the way RJ put down taking the rewards away from an uncooperative subject… who are you to talk? Recall anchoring her negative emotions and utilizing them… that’s not only the absence of feeling good, but the additional emotional strain of negativity that you advocate. And while I don’t find David DeAngelo’s stuff suitable for my own usage… he seems like a pretty decent guy, and fucking his girl was plain wrong. Ironically hilarious… but wrong, nonetheless.But then again, appearances can be decieving… he could secretly be as mentally stagnant as most of this community. Anyway, hope you both find a way to help each other out of this rut, and create some new, and groundbreaking material. ALOHA
I studied with Ross once but didn’t hang around for long. I never found an outlet before where I thought he would read what I wrote. I never posted my thoughts on his internal forum because he had a fierce temper and was likely to debar you for life. So finally I’ve spotted this opportunity – here goes Ross…
Ross, you pretty much started this fantastic movement of empowering men with regard to women and re-engineered brilliant concepts for an amazing purpose. I’ve also seen you use your skills to change peoples lives, within minutes. Huge kudos for that man.
But one time I saw a side of you that sickened me and dramatically changed my view of you. You were abusive, bullying and belittling to a chick. And later you acted like nothing happened, and you weren’t countenancing any feedback. So you learnt nothing from the episode, and thus I presume you are still to this day doing that same shit. Some of the things I subsequently read about you confirmed the impression that it was continuing. Dunno if you are still “nexting” chicks, even though I notice you suggest otherwise in your literature, but that was definitely symptomatic of your approach.
I don’t know what caused you to become like that. I can only think you were particularly badly treated by chicks as a young guy. If so, I would have expected you would have done some self-assessment to rectify that. I’m sure you already realise that the energy you give out is directly related to nearly all the energy and respect you receive back, seeing as energy is one of your principle tenets.
When I first met you, you provided a fairly good impression of great energy (good wisdom, highly intelligent, extremely empathatic). After the above episode, I saw the core energy you were masking – a high degree of aggression and lacking respect for other people, as I say, quite possibly based on a bit of sensitivity underneath (I believe you did once compare yourself to rhinoceros testicles).
I’ve since come across other guys who don’t know 1/100th of the stuff you know about NLP or blissnosis or speed seduction. Yet the energy they were projecting was pretty much blissing all the chicks around them. And they didn’t leave me with a cold feeling in the gut watching them interact with chicks. The difference between them and you was that they were genuine. You were just saying it.
My personal opinion about why you’ve not changed is that you’ve mixed “highly intelligent” with “great person” or “great lover”. As a result, you think your ability to keep finding and unlocking keys is a substitute for great charisma and great energy. Nope. Again the difference is being “genuine”.
I’d hardly come across your name since, so wasn’t sure whether you you had ever changed your game. However, from the above, albeit well-meaning reaction on your part, I notice you still seem to be showing that same aggression, so I can only assume that those issues are still there.
Maybe you don’t give a shit about this pseudo psycho-analysis, that’s up to you, although I wouldn’t give a tinkers cuss if I never hooked up with the same Ross Jeffries I knew before. Its just a well-meant message to you, in the only forum I could find, suggesting that maybe you could do with a bit of the same introspective energy analysis that you preach.
I’d like to read about you finding some measure of happiness within yourself, and getting the kudos you deserve. As its going, I’m resigned to reading about the increasingly curmudgeonly ss founder continuing down his solitary path. I hope not, but that’s your choice. Seems fairly intelligent to me that the easier path would be to work out what these “genuine” guys have got that you are just not “getting”. You’re no longer a pioneer so that’s no longer any excuse for the arrows in the back.
I’d even think there’s no reason to stop or change your work, but I can see every reason for changing that nasty little sensitivity that keeps popping up from time to time.
Anyway, this isn’t a criticism of the other 95% of you Ross. Its just a pointer from an old client who found that little 5% just a bit too unbearable to accept the other 95%.
On that note, I’ll end with best wishes of “peace” and piece to you too.
Um. a few points 1. Ross has the ability to fix peoples problems, i think because when you use techniques you don’t have to “completely” change who you are(you will with time, for course. he has the best “inner game” stuff)so he can change you cause he’s kind of connected to those problems because he never had to COMPLETELY fix his inner game to get laid, although her probably has? +he can manup and say he can’t help you
2. You, in my opinion, have to already have some stuff down before you get “total” success with david wygant. you can look at that dude and you’ll probably think “wow, no way he could get laid with davd wygant stuff”
3. It’s all about who got who laid. he got himself laid and he did it with Rh’s stuff. He seems like an angry person (sometimes) but i think he’s alright, great teacher, it’s just weather or not you want to use his techniques.
peace~live it
As a man who began looking at different programs for improving one’s game only within the past year, I find the comments on sites like this one amazing.
I am not going to give a rat’s ass if one guru insults another. I am only going to invest money with the method that makes sense to my particular dating goals. If Ross Jeffries or someone else’s program gets me laid who cares if he acted like a jerk to another dating guru.
Really, the dialogue I see sounds like something I would see from a group of women. Please…man up and move on. It’s getting embarrassing.
@robert
I actually like hearing feedback about the personal side of these gurus before I go out and donate my hard-earned to them. My experience (of several years) is most of them have something to offer, and you’ll most likely learn enough from any of the better ones to get you laid often enough – its not quite rocket surgery once you understand the ground rules. Sure, its just a preference thing, but I’d rather be giving my cash to someone who’s not only good at teaching this stuff, but also someone I would admire as a person.
As a secondary note (and not in any way disparaging your point), I’d just make the observation that dismissing such comments as coming from a bunch of women implies a general statement about the value of womens conversation. I personally rate womens intelligence quite highly, albeit they do talk about different topics. For me, learning why women discuss different topics than men provided real breakthroughs for me when it came to understanding and bedding them
You know what? Ross might be a jackass, but his shit is legit. Ii’ve going through his modules and soon will be ready to test it out and Im 100% confident it will work. When it comes to getting laid, I ignore politics and concentrate on facts. Ross Jefferies gets you laid and thats a fact.
I’ve studied this bs. for years. Ross Jeffers sucks, not because he’s stupid, but because he’s weird. Most women will not like this approach. There is however a fun flirty approach that always will work with a girl. Of course, you must have the other elements as well. Maturity, understanding, foresight and experience. This comes to the unfortunate reality that most men who really need “help” don’t possess. To the contrary women all tend to think and behave in a similar reverse frame as men. So in the end, the only teacher and I repeat ONLY is experience itself. The further along you get with women, the better you will naturally be..along these lines David Wygant will start to make more and more sense with experiences. Coons like Ross Jeffers are for nubes, hopelessly looking for a one inch punch with no experience.
Right now I am so busy trying to get rid of my bad habits on picking up that I will use both styles,I find them great!
Just after I have finally succeded as I want I would be able to go deep into this dispute…
I have studied both Ross’s and David’s stuff. Neither has helped me get laid, but Ross has given me some really valuable insights, while David’s stuff is totally useless. The phrases “Speed Seduction” and “Double Your Dating” actually describe their respective attitudes very well. The idea that doubling one’s dating could ever be a desirable goal, is obvious utter nonsense, if you stop to think about it for five seconds. It means that if you had one date a month, you will now have two dates a month. If you had one date a year, you’ll have two dates a year. Big deal. And, of course, it means if you had no dates before, you will have no dates after. Double zero is still zero, isn’t it? So clearly David DeAngelo caters for the politically correct customers who are too afraid to admit their natural male needs. It might be a better strategy commercially, but if I had to spend money on either of them, it would be Ross. From him, I can hope to learn at least something useful.
Who hates whom and why and how many women Jeremiah has fucked is none of my concern and I couldn’t care less. Still, could it be that David referred to a different Jeremiah in his reply? That would explain everything.
I’m not too fond of Ross Jeffries but I totally hate David Wygant, so I’m on Ross’s side. Having had a discusson with David Wygant, I can say he’s the kind of person whom I can absolutely trust to tell a blatant lie and appear to be genuinely surprised by accusations that are actually true. So it’s quite possible that Ross is telling the truth and David is just trying to save his face.
Lol, if you closely read this entire article + comments you’ll see Ross, David and Pick up podcast working together to promote their debate speed seduction vs. natural game. A promotional stunt, and the way it has been done was really clever guys!
As for my 2 cents: got a metaphor for ya. All ways lead to Rome, if the “German road goes their just like the “French” one does, both work in their own unique way. One isn’t better than the other, but different compared to… the other. I’m sure some elements of every system work, it’s just what you’re comfortable with.
Now to me, I’m all about finding unifying concepts. Settings like online and clubs and streets are cute, but I want the bigger picture. And I’m not even talking about dating alone, I want the picture that gives me social success because of dating success and vice versa. I’m exploring the universal laws of attraction if you will, and screw all that technique A and B stuff because they flow from the principles. Get the principles… and you create your own techniques!
Regards,
Dennis Miedema
Win With Women
You’re dead wrong on one point Dennis, Wygant can’t stand him.
This reminds me of the heavy metal groups of the 80′s who used to take shots at the pop bands and today they play with them…lol…The industry is a competitive market and for one reason or another they try to set themselves apart from the others so they can attract more consumers. People deal with competition in different ways, and Ross has his way which is to provoke and challenge his competition…
I’m familiar with both programs and it’s a matter of taste, but I like David Wygant’s style better. David says he respects all people but he does single out a particular group of people in one of his programs because he’s not a religious person himself. Another guy teaching on the same subject, singled out the intellect, which is a person he deems as a partying type with no personality. He’s not a religious guy either but his singling out example is more practical with less bias. His approach seems to be David Wygant influenced as he is critical also of the pick up lines. I prefer natural within who you are rather than telling the same pick up lines over and over again…It seems to get boring after awhile even with success and it only works on certain women.
You know what, it doesn’t matter all that much to me about their relationship. I have been following both of them for a while and their shit makes sense. I use their stuff in conjucnction to get results and I’m thankful for it. If one guru doesn’t work for you, so what. Find someone who suits your style. These men don’t have shit that doesn’t “work” or “useless”. Just because it didn’t “work” for you doesn’t meant that it won’t for someone else.
In the end, whatever methods gives you the desired results, GO FOR IT lol. Have fun with life. Take care of yourselves ^_^
My apologies lol I meant, “conjunction” ^_^
Actually, I don’t like to compare which one is better. I simply think any one works for me is good.
Moriconas! Ross Jeffries and David Wygant are both faggots. They can teach you how to suck dick, not how to get women.
To say one approach is better than the other is quite irrelevant, what works for you?
I like to take a synergistic approach. I find Ross’ teaching can be useful when conversing with a girl one-on-one and stuffs to be used in the moment, while David’s more about guidelines and rules and a feel-good approach.
Ross is very intelligent, he patterned out human interactions really well. he has all of his information in as compact form as possible but alot of his stuff is not easy to accept, you need to take the time for yourself to truly understand what it means. you see the way people interpret ross things is that its unnatural but when you look back in your mind, you will see yourself doing them anyways. the label you put on the technique makes it more or less natural. it is natural stuff its just not natural when you remove the content form it.
david AND ross talk about how what you say depends on what the woman is doing for an approach to work. the idea they both carry across is that instead of thinking about what to say, think about how to connect and notice the environment. Ross and David are both extremely similar from a NLP standpoint.
I am using ross speed seduction and after 2 weeks i was introduced to david wygant’s videos. i notice nearly NO difference with the techniques they present. they say the same exact thing just in a slightly different way. Ross stuff is excellent but i was fumbling over understanding some elements of it and that video i saw of David put everything together perfectly. but i would not have understood anything unless i had seen Ross videos first.
in my opinion they should partner up. (although i disagree with NEG’s so if wygant uses them then shame otherwise if he does not, that is great. true communication should exist without the need to harm someone into bed.)
Ross is not an angry person. you see that assumes that we can attribute a mental state “anger” to a person. which is untrue. ross gets angry sometimes is the only truism. but we can say the same for all of us. David gets angry as well, when you see his replies to his haters, although they are funny, they are unnecessary since you don’t need to take them seriously. though its possible he may have been doing that as a ruse for attention. david and ross are both excellent people nonetheless.
Both methods are nearly identical, ross just explains his own methodically and david explains his own through feelings content and connecting the feelings to the work. thus i see no difference other than the way they present the techniques. (david says we chase the grapefruit, Ross says we hump the rag-doll)
Ross Jeffries is a Highly Intelligent Guru. I think most people here who hates Ross is a moralist or a Nice Guy’s who still believes in authenticity and trueness in themselves. It is true that most of his materials are disgusting(in the moralist sense), but it is the only way. We cannot spend ourselves sympathizing and worrying about whether what we do is authentic. If authenticity and Sincerity really matters, why is it that Nice Guys who hone themselves in being real, hates to play games, always shoot themselves in the foot when they approached women? Besides all of us have a morality that is deeply ingrained in our mind. Ross, Me, and other seduction gurus believes in the first place that being authentic, Nice, Sincere Etc. is the way to get women but only after we’ve realized that the world is not like that, we’ve learned from our mistakes. It’s not about being bitter, the world is bitter ever since, just like what buddhist said: Life is suffering.
“When you realize how perfect everything is, you will tilt your head back and laugh at the sky”
My very first poste! I have been in this community for a couple of years and have worked heavily on my inner game. Out of all the so called “GURU’S” in the game, I would have to say that the very best who know about this attraction and dateing is David Deangilo, Niel Streus, and David Wygant. I tell my female friends and new girl friend about this stuff and ask them about it. they all agree on the guys I chose to learn from. I am learning that being genuine within knowing what women want in a man, is the way to go. “I GET IT” without needing to perform any stuped P.U.A. routines. My girl friend and other female friends love me for it. As for Ross Jeffries, well I’d have to say he’s the slimiest little worm I’ve heard of in this whole comunity. He manipulates and is a bully. And I hate those fuckers!
I am a moralist, and with good reason. Not only am I now a new member of this community but I am also part of the antibullying movement. Being a recoverd long past victim of bullying, working on my inner self was first priority. Just like the genuine dateing experts who help me with woman, I help peaple handle guys like Ross Jeffries. My friend’s feel the same way about the twit. I’m not going to get into a lengthy explanation about Ross’s pschological profile. This is about attracting women and dateing, not bullying, even thou that is what I’m seeing.
With that said, I’m without question on David Wygants side. I am a genuine guy who has learnd and is still learning how to genuinly attract woman and getting better fast. My game is genuine!
“Peace out!”
Ross Jeffries is a very intelligent man…
The reason most guys criticize Ross jeffries is because they feel so ENVIOUS….
David Deangelo looks mature…but saying that Mystery is the best pickup artist…someone who dresses like a skateboarder and a CLOWN!??????
Just look Ross dresses and compare all those guys from the Seduction COmmunity…
Ross is UNIQUE…anyone can be unique…ANYONE…but guys do not work on that…or will not deduce or conclude how to be unique…
Ross can pick any women…but mantain any relationship…he is the BEST in his FIELD!!!
guys thats the UNDENIABLE REALITY!!!