The Master The Vibe/Wayne Elise Controversy
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Apparently, Wayne Elise has it out for Master The Vibe. As you know, one of the founders of Charisma Arts, Christian Hudson, created Master The Vibe with a fellow friend in the community, Sebastian Drake of theApproach.
Well… they have a recurring billing cycle in which they send you the latest monthly product, not unlike many companies (Double Your Dating, Mystery Method, every porn site ever). To me, this seems like a sensible option for many guys that want the latest conversational techniques without much hassle. This is a common business practice, especially with the advent of online billing systems.
A customer canceled his subscription of Master The Vibe, and got billed. So he contacted the company, they refunded him and admitted blame with a personal apology to him. Then Wayne Elise (Juggler) weighs in with his opinion on Charisma Arts forum (with Sebastian Drakes rebuttal) about the Master The Vibe co-founder :
What do you think guys - is Wayne talking a hit at his old business partner by saying he’s unethical and censoring his responses?
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Comment by David on 31 July 2007:
Well, the post isn’t there any more on Charisma Arts forum, so yeah, I’d say he’s taking a hit at him.
Comment by Ken on 31 July 2007:
I’ve bought the Charisma Arts collection and I’m subscribed to Master the Vibe. It’s funny because they’re actually really complimentary… probably why Wayne doesn’t want people hearing about it. Maybe I’m biased though, I got a lot of results from both their email list and the Vibe audio. I really think BOTH guys have the best content to learn from. Too bad they can’t get along any more, but as a CA board member I think it’s BS that they deleted the original reply which just explained that they screwed up but then fixed it and left the “Christian is a thief” crap. Wayne, knock that stuff off man. Your customers (me and others) don’t want it, and yes we enjoy Christian’s writing even though you guys don’t work together any more. The Vibe Audio has helped my game, just like the collection did.
Comment by Anthony (mybirthdaypony) on 31 July 2007:
I love this blog but I think this “controversy” should be kept private. Making thousands of people see this and saying that Wayne Elise “has it out” for Master The Vibe could potentially screw a company over. I hope that this post is taken down.
Comment by Rohin on 31 July 2007:
I have to weigh in on this one. I subscribed to Master the Vibe when it launched and they had a $20 price. It was a good product but I’m a lowly summer intern/college student and I emailed them after the second month came out and wanted to cancel. Two things stuck out to me about their customer service guy Alan. Firstly he was great about getting a new disc out to me when they accidentally shipped my first disc to my billing address instead of my shipping address. He did it the next day after I emailed him and I’m in New York so it appeared one day later (the return address is a New York address so that probably helped). Also when I emailed him to cancel he was super-nice about it and wrote something like “hey man I can understand your situation and if you ever want to come back we’ll be waiting for you”. So I don’t know what this guy is talking about but my experience with them was great.
Comment by Rohin on 31 July 2007:
Anthony I just saw your post after I posted mine. Don’t you think that by not letting the mtv guys reply on the charisma arts forum that could potentially screw their company over? This controversy went public the moment it hit their forum.
Comment by Ken on 31 July 2007:
Update: Sebastian’s reply has been deleted off the board, Wayne’s reply and the thief thread is still there. I think if you call someone a thief and don’t let them respond that’s pretty unfair, especially if you’re “not their biggest fan”. You need to be even more fair and careful when someone is a competitor and former friend so you don’t seem like you’re trying to crush the competition. Deleting Sebastian’s reply about what happened with Master the Vibe and the customer (which seemed sensible to me) and leaving the whole thread that insults Christian is no good. I’ve bought from both companies, and I’ve got to say, this is no good from Charisma Arts.
Comment by JJ on 1 August 2007:
wayne was neither defending nor attacking his company and the fool explodes…tell that guy to calm down…damn…
Comment by Mark on 1 August 2007:
Wayne Elise is an idiot. He is having temper tantrums because he has this ridiculous ego and can’t stand his former partner going out on his own with a successful product which has been well received. His censorship of Master of the Vibe explanations is nothing more than a petty act that shows him to have very little self confidence. Obviously not a quality that a “bootcamp” leader should have. If he had any brains he would remove this thread as well as the one in his announcement forum..it’s just silly. Christian Hudson and Sebastian Drake are fair and dynamic individuals with a great product. Wayne needs to grow up.
Comment by James on 1 August 2007:
I like the natural approach from both Charisma Arts and Master the Vibe. I’ve also carefully read the above thread in full and Sebastian’s response. I don’t see anywhere in Wayne’s response where he calls Christian a thief. In fact I think he explicitly states on two occasions that he does not think he is a thief (in reponse to the original poster who made the accusation).
It’s true that it is common practice to have recurring billing after signing up for a free trail, but this doesn’t mean a guy isn’t entitled to disagree with this practice. I personally don’t like it either. If I want recurring billing why don’t I have the option of signing up for it after the free trial (instead of having to actively cancel the subscription after just trying it out). This is a common marketing trap. It doesn’t mean that Wayne or I have it out for Master the Vibe or think the company as unethical.
Unlike other sites, the Charisma arts forum, is for discussing Charisma arts related pick up. There is plenty of other sites where various different products can be compared and discussed. There is a rule against advertising on his site.
I can also understand Sebastian’s desire to defend his company and friend if he feels attacked. I don’t think his entire post should have been erased. But if that is his sole reason for writing the post why did he spend time describing his product and what his company does on a site where advertising of other products and companies is prohibited. Why not just spend the time saying that this was an honest mistake (I am sure it was), that he agrees with Wayne that Christian is not a thief, and move on. Seems like covert advertising cloaked by righteous indignation to me. I don’t think there is any Charisma Arts/ Master the Vibe controversy. I would suggest dropping this and moving on….
Comment by Seduction Chronicles on 1 August 2007:
i can see your point of view James. I think it’s the “covert” manner in which Wayne attacked Master The Vibe, without letting them have a rebuttal is what gets to me.
They deleted Sebastians response, and thus his ability to defend his company.
Comment by James on 1 August 2007:
I don’t like censorship either. I don’t think his post should have just been completely removed (maybe it should have been edited a bit, since it was going against one of the forum rules).
I guess my point is that if Sebastian had just concentrated on defending his friend and company and not on also plugging his product (as the previously censored post also did) maybe his post would not have been erased. If he really wants to reply, maybe he should try that.
Comment by Mark on 1 August 2007:
I’ve been watching the thread on Charisma for some time. Wayne deleted TWO responses from Master The Vibe defending itself. After the first deletion it was brought to his attention that this thread was facilitating defamation of character by deleting the truth. It was then that Wayne grudgingly put his own post on this thread but did not reinstate the original post by Master The Vibe. In his whacky post, it was obvious that Wayne was still trying to cast a shadow on this company that has been totally above board. He has created this controversy by making it personal. Master the Vibe has every right to defend itself against inaccuracies only presented for malilious reasons only. Also, if Charisma is so concerned about promoting other products then it should take down any discussion of Christian Hudson. His purpose for keeping these threads is to hurt not clarify. How can anyone trust someone who deletes and censors the truth. Christian and Sebastian have tried exceedingly hard to be gentlemen during this issue, it’s a shame that the “juggler”/Wayne Elise doesn’t know how.
Comment by LuciferMorningstar on 3 August 2007:
So much for being masters of social dynamics. These PUAs should be ashamed of themselves.
Its ironic that all this talk bout being genuine, believing in healthy ecology (NLP) blah blah blah
Yet there r SOOOOOO many disputes in the community.
The market is more than big enough you dimbulbs!
And i must say this is a mistake on Juggler’s part - for years he has cultivated an angelic reputation
Showing anger like that is a black spot on his record he doesn’t need
Comment by Tom on 3 August 2007:
LuciferMorningstar, What would you do if you and your company were were being unfairly attacked? If attempts to correct misconceptions were deleted and censored? What kind of person does this? I noticed that you posted on Wayne’s thread under announcements. You apparently fell for this manipulation of the truth. Yes, the market is big enough, too bad Wayne Elise doesn’t realize this. You are also correct in this being a mistake and miscalculation on Wayne’s part. I agree with Mark, Wayne needs to remove both threads. Enough is enough. By the way, if you knew Christian and Sebastian you wouldn’t question their sincerity or beliefs.
Comment by TightGame on 5 August 2007:
Juggler makes a very legitimate point. A minimum customer service standard for a montly subscription service should be a username/password login where you can see when then next billing date is (and shipment date) and then have an option to cancel your account right at the site. The seduction industry is a little behind other industries in terms of subscription management sevices. Most of the guys should probably outsource this function so that they can focus on picking up chicks. Having said all this, I think Master the Vibe is a good product.
Comment by Mark on 14 August 2007:
Juggler doesn’t understand the definition of a legitimate point. His goal is to attack a product that threatens him (in his head). Very transparent. Very insecure. And yes, Master the Vibe is a very good product.
Comment by Achilles Cyres on 17 August 2007:
Juggler’s sayings are blurred between condemning an every-day issue of the type of payment that some companies use, and defending Hudson.
Mark, you may be right, but your judgment is not objective when you are close friends with the the founders of Master the Vibe.
I’ve seeing your name featured in the Master the Vibe podcasts, as well as mentioned in the blog: http://blog.masterthevibe.com/?p=21
“Last week I found myself and my friend Mark being snuck into the backdoor of a club called Tao here in Manhattan…”
My advice to you: Avoid calling anyone “an idiot” in public. Sometimes bad things happen.
MtV’s work is great. Nevertheless, Juggler is not threatened by what they do. His seminars, bootcamps, life coaching is independent from what MtV offers.
Achilles
Comment by Mark on 20 August 2007:
Achilles, I’m not in the podcasts or the person in the blog, sorry to disappoint you. My judgment is not based on a close friendship, only observations. Also, I am sure that there is more than one Mark in this universe.
My advice to you: Avoid suggesting that bad things can happen to someone for voicing their opinion.
Comment by Achilles Cyres on 21 August 2007:
Well, since I have no clue about this MtV-fun nickname appearing everywhere, I am forced believe you and I apologize. I enjoy expressing my opinion as much as you do, so next time try calling the judge in a court “an idiot”, because it might be your opinion. But i suppose you have no clue about legal stuff. Sorry I tried to protect you.
peace
Achilles
Comment by Mark on 21 August 2007:
Achilles, apology accepted. Your analogy with the judge, however, is a stretch. A judge interprets the law to seek the truth. He is respected because he doesn’t censor or delete the truth. For someone to do this and think he can get away with it is idiotic. Censoring and deleting the truth is the point of this post. Censoring misleads the forum readers. Honesty doesn’t need protection, but thank you.